Agnostic's Corner (Is God real?)

Adam and Eve were aware God existed because of direct contact with him. They did not have the choice to believe or not. They were similar to the Angels in that their choice was to obey or not. So did Adam and Eve not have this “perfect free will?”

No they did not, and this was by design: God knew they would choose to disobey, and make us in a perfect state of free will where we future humans would be able to choose to believe or not.
 
I think any agnostic could benefit from reading Chris Langan's CTMU paper. Chris is extremely confident about his belief in God and the CTMU is his model that is his proof. CTMU pdf. I was able to understand some of it on a first read-through. Caution: it's complicated and there's a lot of terms you have to learn, but it did strengthen my faith regardless of my quality of understanding.

I'm a big fan of Chris Langan, his theories are beyond my comprehension, however my gut says he's a good person. I listened to his 4 hour interview with Curt Jaimungle, it is fascinating. His interview with Michael Knowles has 10 million views, which is extraordinary given he's not a celebrity.

I'm agnostic, I'm not an atheist. If someone as brilliant as Langan says God is real, it causes me to pause and leave my mind open to the possibility. I've also noticed that the smartest of the smart also tend to believe in God, this too informs me to keep an open mind.

I'm somewhere around here at the moment

Australia Sucks said:
I have heard enough instances from people I know or have met of things happening in this world that are beyond the explanation of the physical reality that science can explain but its a huge leap to go from "there is something beyond the physically explainable reality" to "god exists and is the Christian god"

I've personally experienced the "something beyond the physically explainable reality", I'm absolutely positive that something is going on outside of myself that I cannot understand. But, at the moment, I cannot link this to a being. When I try to link it to an entity I feel like it's an impossible task because *I* am inserting myself ( projection ) into the attempt to understand. I've read parts of the Bible and I feel like it's an attempt to make the non-understandable somewhat coherent for normal brains, and so there's a corruption of truth in this process that I just can't get past. It's the fact that the smartest of the smart believe in God that impresses me so much that I am keeping an open mind, I have to! these people are absolutely brilliant, I'm not, there HAS to be something to it. So, that's where I'm at for the moment.

Samseau said:
Scientific analysis is incapable of explaining anything significant.

Prove to us, scientifically, that murder is wrong. Or that theft is wrong. Or that you love your mother.

Prove that the color yellow is the same color as my yellow I see. Prove that 'you' exist, whatever your 'self' is.

The fact is, none of these things can be proven because it relies on experience that is not sensory, which is why scientific explanations always will fall flat.

Yup, agreed. This is a problem also.

I seriously wish I believed in God, I've prayed about 200 times in the past 4 years and haven't noticed a sign. I'm envious of those of you that feel a comfort and peace because of your belief. Hopefully I'll arrive there one day.
 
No, it is real, even if I cannot prove it, just like I believe myself is real, or that theft is wrong, or that murder is wrong, or that I love my mother. I don't need to be able to scientifically prove these things to know they are real, just like you don't.
I like that one, about also not being able to scientifically prove that you love someone. I definitely love my kids, and yet you couldn't prove that in the same way you can test the law of gravity.
 
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I like that one, about also not being able to scientifically prove that you love someone. I definitely love my kids, and yet you couldn't prove that in the same way you can test the law of gravity.
I dunno, maybe you can, it just isn't the kind of science you can assign a mathematical formula to. If you are shown pictures of loved ones compared to strangers and particular parts of your brain light up that are strongly correlated with what we define as love when you see your kids, then it's scientifically provable you love your kids.
 
The "how can something come from nothing" argument should solidify it for most people.

If you're a scientist and understand entropy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics it's that things become more disordered over time. Well then how do scientists mentally navigate this quandary with evolution and a creation of humans by things randomly becoming more ordered? Make it make sense.
They often say they sun is there to increase order in the system. Ok where did that come from? Turtles all the way down.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
 
I dunno, maybe you can, it just isn't the kind of science you can assign a mathematical formula to. If you are shown pictures of loved ones compared to strangers and particular parts of your brain light up that are strongly correlated with what we define as love when you see your kids, then it's scientifically provable you love your kids.

That means nothing, you can light up those same parts of the brain with drugs. That doesn't mean those drugs make you love someone.
 
If God were to 'reveal Himself' a la Monty Python, and tell the world that He is God and we must now believe, people that didn't want to believe would still not believe. AI? CGI? David Copperfield again?

Those who would believe, would they believe out of fear? While you would do well to respectfully fear such a powerful being such as God, He desires to be in relationship with each of us. If He were to force his way into our lives, that is not love. So He has left it obvious to us that He exists, and we should seek Him out if we choose to do so. That is a loving relationship.

Faith is not blind faith. I have faith that my parents love me. My children have faith that I love them. No scientific tests will prove that. You are asking to explain the unlimited supernatural using the limited natural sciences, that is impossible.

You have to ask, seek, knock. Once you accept Him, then the 'proof' becomes undeniable by way of the Holy Spirit.

This us where I think people like Jordan Peterson get a bit stuck. They try and intellectualise it, get 75% of the way there, then can't get the remaining way because it's not about our intellect. Romans 1:22.

God does not need us, He wants us. We do need God, but some do not want Him. It is for us to look for Him. Once you do, you will kick yourself for being so blind.
 
If God were to 'reveal Himself' a la Monty Python, and tell the world that He is God and we must now believe, people that didn't want to believe would still not believe. AI? CGI? David Copperfield again?

There was this very prominent poster on the old Roosh forums who actually did say that even if God were to reveal Himself in a way His existence couldn't be denied, he would still continue to hate Him and refuse to worship Him. An atheist argument I heard used against believers a lot was about how believers were captured by wishful thinking and that they believe mostly out of a desire for a being that is guiding the universe and will give them guidance on how to live life. After spending quite a bit of time listening to atheists give their reasons for not believing I concluded that a lot of atheists are also prone to this type of wishful thinking but from the other end: it's not just they don't think God exists based on rational argument but they don't want God to exist. In the same way a believer might have a longing for fatherly figure, an atheist can just easily have a longing to NOT have a fatherly authority figure that's going put boundaries on their fun and going to put a spotlight on their deeds.
 
"Is God real?"

That is for you to figure out on your own.

Mainstream media and Hollywood continues to mock, stun and hate Christianity. Why?

There are worldwide Christian persecutions in anti-Christian countries. Why?

There used to be bible readings and prayers in public schools, which triggered the atheists to go to court to put a stop to it in the 1960's. Why?

There are fake churches, pastors, priests, etc. that are spreading false teachings. Why?

The ((()))s hate Christians and Jesus Christ. Why?

There are Satanic rituals, child molesters, murderers, pedophiles, homosexuals, drag queens, etc. Why?

Is Satan, Devil, Evil, etc. real? Look at the above list again...look around you and pay attention...

Is God real?

I am not a Christian so I could be totally wrong about this but my understanding is that god is not a magic genie where you just ask for things and god provides them to you because you prayed for it.
My problem with Christianity is that if Christianity really is the real deal then why did god not make it obvious to all and sundry?
That is on you because you clearly have never picked up the Bible to crack open the book to read the scriptures.

Instead we have an estimated 4000 - 10,000 different religions in the world and with an estimated 700 deities being worshiped currently.
You can find clues in the Bible. There are scriptures that warned us of false churches, false teachers and false teachings.

And that is not even talking about the vast number of agnostics and atheists.
Anyone who called themselves agnostics and/or atheists, that is their choice in not showing an interest in Christianity.

If god really is the god of the Christians that they claim he is why didn't he make it indisputably clear to all?
Maybe try to join a Church and talk to a priest about it? What is stopping you from doing that?

Instead the god of the Christians deliberately chose to allow humans to continue living in confusion and doubt long after Christ returned to heaven. But for what purpose?
Have you tried reading a Bible?

Orthodox-Study-Bible-photo3.jpg
 
God is not your bitch. He doesnt have to do shit. You are the one who have to demonstrate to Him your faith. Its the other way around. You have to prove yourself to Him.

He did reveal Himself through Christ. And societies who follow His verb have better lives than others. Even though we are all imperfect. Unfortunately there will always be shit.

Its historicly undebatable Christ existed. And you can see God work in the perfection of nature. Theres something superior to humans in nature. Even though God said we should dominate nature. Not those kumbalaya nature greenpeace retards.

Go to a church sit there. An old cath or ortho church. Before the mass. Close your eyes. And take a big breath.
Hear what Magoo said.

Let's use Roosh's pizza recipe as an example. Roosh created the perfect Italian Neapolitan pizza recipe. It is available for free, and everyone can try it. It even includes a tutorial on how to make it. However, we don't believe it and ask Roosh to prove that his recipe is indeed the best with crystal-clear, peer-reviewed scientific proof. Of course, Roosh wouldn't have any of this nonsense. He is not selling his recipe and did not profit from it, as it is already free. If we want to try it, that's great. But if we don't like it, then we can go away. Roosh doesn't need us; we are the ones who need Roosh and his recipe.

We need to try Roosh's pizza recipe and decide for ourselves whether it is worth it, without relying on scientific proof from others. So, we get straight to baking Neapolitan pizza according to Roosh's instructions. After baking a single pizza, we can form a preliminary conclusion about whether it was worth it or not. However, it is not yet time to make a final decision, as Roosh stated that we need to be willing to try his recipe at least five times. Once we can perfectly create Roosh's pizza, it is guaranteed that we have found the ultimate pizza recipe, and there is none other like it.

So, Australia Sucks, follow Magoo's advice and go to a church to pray and attend a service. Go there several times and visit different churches. You can't just ask for a scientific explanation without even trying it yourself. Science is not the ultimate authority; observation is.

Also, God indeed revealed Himself openly in the past, but it didn't work out as expected. Jesus Christ was murdered by His haters, and almost all of His apostles were also murdered, except for a few who survived, like John the Evangelist.
 
What one man considers to be right another man considers to be wrong so I do not see the point you are making.
If I may ask, Australia, although you now identify as agnostic, were you raised as a Christian or in any other religion? I ask because although you explicitly identify as agnostic, your actions suggest otherwise. In most of the things you do, you act like a Christian without even realizing it. Your morality bears similarity to Christianity, despite you saying that right or wrong depends on the individual.

You mentioned in one of the threads that you live a frugal life and started investing and saving since high school. Most agnosticism/atheism can lead to nihilism, so many people just live in the moment and chase pleasure. Yet you think about the future and have hopes in life.

In one of your posts, I saw you mentioned living with your parents to save money. When I read this, I interpreted it as you being humble. You are a filial son, living with your parents to take care of them and keep them company. You are unwilling to leave them alone unless you are already married and have a family of your own.

You have shown that you are a very forgiving person. In the past, you have been disrespected and outright trolled in multiple threads, but you never harbored hatred or sought revenge. You forgave them and did not hold grudges, even though they felt righteous and never asked for your forgiveness.

If you wanted to, you could join other forums like SoSuave, Skilled Seducer, and SwoopTheWorld. However, you chose to stay in Christ is King, an explicitly Christian forum. Most non-Christian members here usually don't last long and become inactive shortly after registering.

When the name of Jesus Christ is invoked multiple times, you remain calm and composed. Most atheistic or demonically influenced individuals would lose their composure and start manifesting their demons outwardly.

You have always championed the cause of virginity. You instinctively know that extramarital sex is wrong. Although, in this case, you are halfway correct, as both men and women need to maintain purity and chastity, not just women.

You could always use dating apps like Tinder, Bumble, OkCupid, or others. However, you prefer the old-fashioned way of meeting women face-to-face organically. You spend a lot of time and money meeting women in their own places, even if it is in a different country.

The only way you can come to such outcomes is if you were raised in a Christian or religious household. Or perhaps you participated in religious activities during your youth and only recently became agnostic?
 
A lot of good points have been made already, but one thing I haven't seen posted yet is the book Mere Christianity. It's worth reading if you're ever on the fence about your faith. This book marked the turning point from my 15 years of agnosticism to coming back to Christ.

I was baptized way too young, young enough to know it was what mommy and daddy wanted but too young to understand scripture. I started to read scripture from beginning to end, and let certain questions that came to mind just hang there and fester. That doubt lead to some soul searching and reading up on other religions. Eventually I was doing yoga at a place where a lot of us regulars were treating it like a church. I noticed all the same things I used to criticize about church and churchgoers among all the "yogis." I wanted to get back in touch with my own roots, and figured that started with my parents' religion. That's what lead me to read that book.

. It's wild to see just how convinced a lot of the Orthobros, Catholics (all the variations from Novus Ordo to Sedevacantist), and various kinds of Protestants are that their particular flavor of Chrisianity is the correct one and all the others are obviously wrong. It's hard to wrap my head around

There's a part of that book where CS Lewis wrote something to the effect of 'some are destined to linger the halls of non-denominational while peering in the doors of each denomination forever,' or something like that. It stuck with me because I have the same struggle. Maybe it's a reflection of being raised in multiple denominations. Some of it is that there just are that many denominations, and I want to think of them all as my fellow Christians first.

@Australia Sucks and others who are agnostic, if you're any bit interested in any introductions to Christianity outside of reading the Bible, I invite you to read that book.

Perhaps you ultimately have to have that moment in life such that is so moving you choose to believe in Jesus Christ. But when I really stop to think about it, that moment was the result of a process already set in motion by my parents taking me to church regularly at its root.
 
In the same way a believer might have a longing for fatherly figure, an atheist can just easily have a longing to NOT have a fatherly authority figure that's going put boundaries on their fun and going to put a spotlight on their deeds.
That pretty much sums up the whole Bible. Believers see a Graceful God. Non-believers see a Judgemental God. Both are true. It takes the Holy Spirit to see that "His commandments are not burdensome" and that "God is love," to go from non-believing to believing.
 
So you admit that you cannot really be sure that Christianity is real?

It is a failure and injustice done to Christianity to say it cannot be proven by science. St John of Damascus defines "man" as a "rational, mortal, animal". When it's at it's best, Christianity is the science of sciences, Christ is able to free man from having his vision clouded by the irrational impulses that affect all of us. This was the foundation it was laid upon, and it's what separates it from other religions. It's why Orthodox Christians stand on Sundays as decreed at the first ecumenical council and at also at prayer. God wants each person to stand on their own two legs the best they can. It's directly in the hymns.

If Christianity isn't aiming to make your vision clearer, it's not Christianity, and if someone isn't attempting making their own vision clearer, and have their sight in accordance with their actions, they're not a Christian regardless of what they tell you.

Modern science as an institution has been captured by people following these irrational impulses, that's why taking the jab was "following the science", if that doesn't show you that the material world is downstream from perception, let me give you an example.

You see a young beautiful woman, your desire for her is going to affect how you see her. Do you think her father sees her in the same way that you would? Yes or no?

If you'd like me to continue, respond indicating so, otherwise I won't waste my breath.
 
It is really difficult to break out of the modern materialist mindset. It tends to seep in, even if you claim to reject it.

A lot of religious thought comes from a time when this viewpoint did not exist. In which there was an extremely different view on reality, one in which symbolism and meaning and so forth were counted as having some kind of ontological existence rather than being a subjective thought process.

In the modern world we would say that there is no meaning to a mountain, its just a certain configuration of matter and any meaning is a subjective process in our minds based on experiences and culture etc. However in more ancient times there wasn't such a downplaying of the meaning, and it would have been considered that the symbolic meaning of a mountain was just as real as the rock it was made out of, if not moreso.

And the idea of God becomes much less distant if you are prepared to jetison the materialistic presuppositions that we have in the modern world. God is the Absolute towards which all meaning and purpose and symbolism points.

And we all inhabit a world that is steeped in meaning. No one would say that climbing a mountain is exactly the same in terms of meaning as getting an airlift to the top in a helicopter, or that the experience is just as significant as the experience of brushing your teeth that morning. We all prioritize things that are meaningful.

I also think that whilst is prescriptions were terrible Nietzsche was on the nose when he saw the consequences of killing God. All meaning collapses. But no atheist actually lives like this is the case. If atheists were consistent with their worldview they would not care about fairness or justice, or morality of any kind because it doesn't exist in their worldview.

Once you see through the facade of materialism and realise there is another way to look at reality that makes more sense, the idea of God existing becomes significantly more obvious.
 
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