Agnostic's Corner (Is God real?)

[GoodShepherd]

That sounds like copium. God since he is infinitely powerful could obviously figure out a way to reveal himself in such a way that almost all people would believe and I do not see how it affects free will since he would not be forcing anybody to accept him or worship him once he has revealed himself.

That also sounds like copium. Why would good play favourites and only give some groups the full revelation and others group only partial revelation? Did he not imbue all groups of men with eqaul innate morality?

I have heard enough instances from people I know or have met of things happening in this world that are beyond the explanation of the physical reality that science can explain but its a huge leap to go from "there is something beyond the physically explainable reality" to "god exists and is the Christian god"

I think the time in history that God made Himself most obvious but still hidden was when He entered His creation through the virgin Mary and became Man. During His lifetime that period of time that He walked the earth, even then He never forced upon people who He was so some were able to see, others werent, some only noticed much later yet they were eye witnesses but not all believed, God is humble and meek, even the way He was born into this world was very quietly and humbly in an animals barn not inside a palace with huge celebrations from the town.

The Magi who were originally from Iran they came to worship Christ the child through the revelation that the stars gave them wether it was astrology or astronomy I dont know for sure but the creation, the cosmos led them to Christ at his birth, this might be a topic you want to research yourself about the Magi how through nature they got the revelation of who Christ was and why they worshipped Him.

Another topic you might want to examine is the physical history or Christ as a historical figure and also why did they Greeks, Romans and the Egyptians abandon their religions to convert to Christianity at that time without anyone pointing a gun to their head.

 

[Australia Sucks]

So no, God cannot reveal himself directly like that.

That is not a good argument. If god made it obvious to everybody that he exists and is in charge they could still openly choose to rebel against him like Satan did (since we have free will). That is my whole argument. Why doesn't god make it obvious to all that he exists and Christianity is the way and then those that openly want to rebel can knowingly do so and those who want to follow can do so in an informed manner instead of always having doubt in the back of their minds.

There is such a lack of concrete evidence for Christianity (and other religions) that many Christians eventually give up their faith and become agnostics.

 

[RedLagoon]

That is not a good argument. If god made it obvious to everybody that he exists and is in charge they could still openly choose to rebel against him like Satan did (since we have free will). That is my whole argument. Why doesn't god make it obvious to all that he exists and Christianity is the way and then those that openly want to rebel can knowingly do so and those who want to follow can do so in an informed manner instead of always having doubt in the back of their minds.

There is such a lack of concrete evidence for Christianity (and other religions) that many Christians eventually give up their faith and become agnostics.

So what (who) do you believe in then?

The $?

 

[thinkreadwritecode]

I think any agnostic could benefit from reading Chris Langan's CTMU paper. Chris is extremely confident about his belief in God and the CTMU is his model that is his proof. CTMU pdf. I was able to understand some of it on a first read-through. Caution: it's complicated and there's a lot of terms you have to learn, but it did strengthen my faith regardless of my quality of understanding.

 

[magoo]

That is not a good argument. If god made it obvious to everybody that he exists and is in charge they could still openly choose to rebel against him like Satan did (since we have free will). That is my whole argument. Why doesn't god make it obvious to all that he exists and Christianity is the way and then those that openly want to rebel can knowingly do so and those who want to follow can do so in an informed manner instead of always having doubt in the back of their minds.

There is such a lack of concrete evidence for Christianity (and other religions) that many Christians eventually give up their faith and become agnostics.

God is not your bitch. He doesnt have to do shit. You are the one who have to demonstrate to Him your faith. Its the other way around. You have to prove yourself to Him.

If God had to prove Himself it would mean He is not God.

Ask and you shall receive. But its not enough to just ask. You need to be sincere. Cause you cant bullshit Him.

He did reveal Himself through Christ. And societies who follow His verb have better lives than others. Even though we are all imperfect. Unfortunately there will always be shit.

Faith is not rational. Its something from the heart. Theres no 2+2=4. You need to believe with your heart not your brain.

Just as your plan of 1M=perfect wife wont work. Human nature is too complex and dynamic for this type of thinking.

Life its what happens while your making plans. Lennon and all that.

Be a man. Be a christian man. And you will see the diference. But the time for childish playground selfishness will be over.

Its historicly undebatable Christ existed. And you can see God work in the perfection of nature. Theres something superior to humans in nature. Even though God said we should dominate nature. Not those kumbalaya nature greenpeace retards.

Many scientists were deeply religious. Google them.

Go to a church sit there. An old cath or ortho church. Before the mass. Close your eyes. And take a big breath.

I havent gone to an empty church for a while. Now they close churches because of the savage heathen migrants.

 

[Iakobos]

That is not a good argument. If god made it obvious to everybody that he exists and is in charge they could still openly choose to rebel against him like Satan did (since we have free will). That is my whole argument. Why doesn't god make it obvious to all that he exists and Christianity is the way and then those that openly want to rebel can knowingly do so and those who want to follow can do so in an informed manner instead of always having doubt in the back of their minds.

There is such a lack of concrete evidence for Christianity (and other religions) that many Christians eventually give up their faith and become agnostics.

You keep speaking as if it's self-evident that God should equally reveal Himself obviously to everyone everywhere at all times. Why should He do this?

 

[Samseau]

That is not a good argument. If god made it obvious to everybody that he exists and is in charge they could still openly choose to rebel against him like Satan did (since we have free will). That is my whole argument. Why doesn't god make it obvious to all that he exists and Christianity is the way and then those that openly want to rebel can knowingly do so and those who want to follow can do so in an informed manner instead of always having doubt in the back of their minds.

First of all, capitalize God.

Second, if God wanted Angels he would make Angels. But Angels did not have a choice whether or not to believe. Angels had a choice on whether or not to obey. Humans get both choices; humans are therefore given perfect free will. Angels have an imperfect free will, they were created for a specific automatic purpose.

Angels rebelled precisely BECAUSE they were not given the same level of love as Humans, who were given more freedom than Angels were. Satan essentially wanted revenge against God to show what a mistake this would be, and tricked Adam and Eve into disobedience, so that they would lose direct access to God and thereby lose proof of God. This was done in order to try and hurt God by harming his most beloved creation.

So, it is because God loves us with a perfect love that he does not directly reveal himself to us, because God wants to see which of us are actually good humans to return the love back to God. If God did not give us the ability to reject, then it would not be perfect love.

 

[JohnKruk]

So what (who) do you believe in then?

The $?

This is a great question. If you don't believe in God then what do you believe? My foray into atheism led me down a path toward hedonism and nihilism, which is certainly nothing to aspire towards. I began to realize that there is so much evil in the world, pure evil, and for what? There has to be a holy counter balance to that. If you believe in nothing, then what is stopping you from practicing dark arts, especially if it benefits you in some way. There is an HBO show being advertised now (Hysteria!) where some kids decide to start a Satanist metal band because it will make them popular and successful. Drag shows somehow bring in a wide audience of female spectators. Why not do these things? I believe it's because you innately know that it's wrong and that is the influence of God's presence. Even famous atheist richard dawkins now considers himself a "cultural Christian" (lol, what a fraud!)

 

[Matsufubu]

Ugh, 'cultural Christians'...they love eating apples, they want to continue eating apples, but at the same time they want all apple trees cut down. It doesn't make sense.

They think if they remove religion then we get Star Trek. No, you get the Soviet Union, Mao's China, the Khmer Rouge and millions of dead bodies.

 

[ginsu]

Great answer earlier that all the different religions can be explained that they are led by other real entities. My only question is if god is real which i do believe why does it apear that his followers are being crushed under the weight of the rest of the world. And if nothing changes will be wiped out. I do not understand why god would not intervene. We are closing in on a point of no return. If christianity(whites) are gone then this world is truly lost. good and evil being a power struggle makes sense, i do not expect there to be no evil but evil dominating this world entirely i do not understand why that would be allowed to happen. Maybe it is too soon to tell and many things will change but this is just looking at the current trajectory.

 

[Iakobos]

This is a great question. If you don't believe in God then what do you believe? My foray into atheism led me down a path toward hedonism and nihilism, which is certainly nothing to aspire towards. I began to realize that there is so much evil in the world, pure evil, and for what? There has to be a holy counter balance to that. If you believe in nothing, then what is stopping you from practicing dark arts, especially if it benefits you in some way. There is an HBO show being advertised now (Hysteria!) where some kids decide to start a Satanist metal band because it will make them popular and successful. Drag shows somehow bring in a wide audience of female spectators. Why not do these things? I believe it's because you innately know that it's wrong and that is the influence of God's presence. Even famous atheist richard dawkins now considers himself a "cultural Christian" (lol, what a fraud!)

Very similar to my path. If you are an intellectually honest atheist and hold that life has no inherent purpose and existence is non-teleological, you are forced to eventually come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is maximize your pleasure and comfort, and prolong death as long as you can. That, or suicide.

Great answer earlier that all the different religions can be explained that they are led by other real entities. My only question is if god is real which i do believe why does it apear that his followers are being crushed under the weight of the rest of the world. And if nothing changes will be wiped out. I do not understand why god would not intervene. We are closing in on a point of no return. If christianity(whites) are gone then this world is truly lost. good and evil being a power struggle makes sense, i do not expect there to be no evil but evil dominating this world entirely i do not understand why that would be allowed to happen. Maybe it is too soon to tell and many things will change but this is just looking at the current trajectory.

This is all prophesied in the book of Revelation. Things can stand to get a lot worse before Christians are truly in danger of perishing (which of course God will not allow). True Christians will be exiled from society by the mark of the beast, of which we've seen precursors but not the real deal yet.

Matthew 24 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Take heart. Suffering is what brings one close to God and the holiest monks thank God for the trials He sends them. (I'm still working on this part though.)

 

[Australia Sucks]

So what (who) do you believe in then?

The $?

I am just humble enough to admit I do not have the answers.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

My problem with Christianity is that if Christianity really is the real deal then why did god not make it obvious to all and sundry?

Because it is not God's will to reveal Himself to all and make it plain to everybody. Some Christians can speak like that, but the Bible plainly says the opposite. In this creation, God is making His will known. Grace to those who believe. Judgement for those who don't. Christians, including myself, want you to believe so that you will not face God's judgement but ultimately it's in God's hands.

As for Agnosticism itself, it is fundamentally an incoherent worldview. Because while saying that you do not know if God exists, you still assume that there is right and wrong in the world and live your life accordingly, which can only be if God does in fact exist.

 

[Australia Sucks]

is right and wrong in the world and live your life accordingly,

What one man considers to be right another man considers to be wrong so I do not see the point you are making.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

What one man considers to be right another man considers to be wrong so I do not see the point you are making.

The point is that you already believe in morality without justifiable cause. You may say that morality is subjective, but this is demonstrably false from human experience. You still rely on other people doing the "right" thing and you will still call others out for doing the "wrong" thing. Clearly, there is a higher foundation for morality that people assume when dealing with others, namely God. The only question is if someone is aware that God provides the foundation for morality, or if they are unaware of it, but will assume it regardless.

For example, if someone were to rob you, you wouldn't say "I don't know if what the robbers did is wrong" even though that would be consistent with your Agnosticism. Rather, you would say that the robber is wrong to rob you and you would like to see justice for it because you do live in a world that is imbued with meaning by God.

 

[Australia Sucks]

The point is that you already believe in morality without justifiable cause.

Humans evolved with some baseline level of morality to be able to function as tribes/societies etc. You could argue it was an evolutionary process or that humans were imbued with an innate sense of morality by god. Just because you could argue that there is a baseline sense of the concept of morality in humans it doesn't mean that logically follows its attributable to god.

The problem is that Christians cannot provide sufficient hard scientific evidence for their belief in a Christian god.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Humans evolved with some baseline level of morality to be able to function as tribes/societies etc.

It doesn't make sense to say that evolution is the justification for morality even in the Darwinian paradigm since to act according to the survival of the fittest would be to act in an immoral way. Morality itself is one of the greatest proofs that societies do not live according to the evolutionary paradigm.

Just because you could argue that there is a baseline sense of the concept of morality in humans it doesn't mean that logically follows its attributable to god.

It is logical if the alternative justifications, such as evolution, are shown to be impossible.

The problem is that Christians cannot provide sufficient hard scientific evidence for their belief in a Christian god.

The truth is that there is no evidence that an atheist would be willing to accept since their fundamental presupposition already assumes that God does not exist. Since you brought up science, the scientific method itself would not be possible in a world without God.

 

[Iakobos]

Humans evolved with some baseline level of morality to be able to function as tribes/societies etc. You could argue it was an evolutionary process or that humans were imbued with an innate sense of morality by god. Just because you could argue that there is a baseline sense of the concept of morality in humans it doesn't mean that logically follows its attributable to god.

The problem is that Christians cannot provide sufficient hard scientific evidence for their belief in a Christian god.

Any scientific evidence would be automatically rejected by you as being impossible, and you would justify this as saying "I have no alternative explanation but Science will explain it someday." Creation itself is scientific evidence of a Creator which you ignore when it's raised despite lacking an alternative Scientific explanation. It may not PROVE the Creator but it is absolutely evidence to any nonbiased person.

Science is building a 'best model' based on our observations. It appears to me that you ab initio dismiss the existence of the Christian God as an alternative possibility to his nonexistence. You prefer your own faith that Science will eventually come up with alternate explanations that don't involve God. I used to approach this topic the same way when I was an atheist and it led me to speak like you. I don't mean this in a condescending way though I'm sure it comes off like that.

The Scientific atheist has no Scientific explanation for existence, there no Scientific explanation for the origin of life, there is no Scientific explanation for the advanced consciousness that separates men from animals. And there never will be, this is not the role of Science. It is the role of spiritual revelation to man's heart.

I am just humble enough to admit I do not have the answers.

Right underneath your post, GodfatherPartTwo explain how Christians in fact acknowledge, in submission to God, that they do not and will not have all the answers regarding the exact details of God's plan for humanity's salvation. It is you who is demanding all the answers. Don't get me wrong, your questions are fair and I invite them. But if you are actually interested to explore Christianity and not just debunk it (by all means clarify because I'm not interested to engage with a deboonker), you have to "try it on," so to speak.

I don't want to pile on you Australia cause I know it's only you on one side of this discussion against an entire forum of Christians, and while I've been harsh to you, I see a lot of my younger self in you as well.

Here is my absolute most important advice I could give you if you want to understand the truth of Christ:

You have to willfully force yourself accept the possibility of God's existence as true, even if you consider it to be a temporary experiment. Then read the Gospels (they're not long and quite readable), visit a Divine Liturgy (even if you simply view it as an experiment). This will start opening up all sorts of insights into the truth. I know it's a lot of work but it's only the meaning of human existence, it's fair to expect some effort to be involved.

On the other hand if you refuse to truly, in your heart, be open to God being real and Christ being His son, it's purposeless and will only strengthen your atheism. I know this firsthand.

 

[analyst_green]

When TrainedLogosmotion, despite being formerly a great Christian, finally fell away after around two years of baptism, I felt demoralized by this. I'm now also at two years after my baptism, the exact same timeframe as TrainedLogosmotion. If he, as someone who is a much greater Christian than me, can still fall away, this is much harder for me as someone who was never a good Christian to begin with.

Not necessarily. I heard (I believe it was from Fr. Kosmas's Orthodox Talks) that there are generally two types of people in the Church. The first type is those who start out as great Christians, being really good at fasting, following the commandments, etc. The biggest danger for them is that they can become prideful of this and eventually some of them fall into great sin. For example, imagine staying chaste for two years and thinking you're such a great Christian then suddenly succumbing to temptation and going back to prostitutes or erotic massage parlors. Well the right thing to do is go and confess and get back up. But sometimes they don't, they are so filled with shame and pride that they cannot even bring themselves to confess this to their priests after being so good for so long. They can't get back to being as faithful to Christ and keeping the commandments, and when the going gets rough, they quit and abandon the Church.

The second type, which is supposedly better concerning long-term outcomes, is those who really struggle with Christianity at first. They slog through it, barely able to keep up with fasting, prayer, and all the commandments. Constantly they are bombarded by awful temptations for the first months or years they are in the Church. The risk here is that they will give up and fall away because the struggle is overwhelming. But if they keep getting back up and fighting, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. They're not proud of being Christians at first because they're so bad at it. When they fall, they are already used to confessing the same sins over and over again so it doesn't hurt their ego to do it again.

I myself am of the second type, and perhaps you are too. I still haven't seen the light at the end of the tunnel, but I trust God will deliver me when it is time as long as I stay faithful to Him. Perhaps TrainedLogosmotion was of the first type and he couldn't handle his fall so he convinced himself it's all a lie and he wouldn't have to put in the hard work to get out of the pit. I don't know. But what we are going through in the present is no indication of the future and we shouldn't be looking to others' successes or failures, only our own. We all have our own path.

 

[Samseau]

The problem is that Christians cannot provide sufficient hard scientific evidence for their belief in a Christian god.

Scientific analysis is incapable of explaining anything significant.

Prove to us, scientifically, that murder is wrong. Or that theft is wrong. Or that you love your mother.

Prove that the color yellow is the same color as my yellow I see. Prove that 'you' exist, whatever your 'self' is.

The fact is, none of these things can be proven because it relies on experience that is not sensory, which is why scientific explanations always will fall flat.

Humans evolved with some baseline level of morality to be able to function as tribes/societies etc. You could argue it was an evolutionary process or that humans were imbued with an innate sense of morality by god. Just because you could argue that there is a baseline sense of the concept of morality in humans it doesn't mean that logically follows its attributable to god.

This isn't even remotely true. The vast majority of prehistoric human societies had no concept of property. Theft was not a crime unless the chieftain claimed it.

Romans did not care about murder, they watched it for fun in the colosseum. Tons of historical examples which show just how relative morality is.

Our morality does not exist without Christ, and, it is superior to all others, which is why you seek women from Christian or formerly Christian cultures. You're simply denying reality at this point.