Iakobos
Orthodox
You keep speaking as if it's self-evident that God should equally reveal Himself obviously to everyone everywhere at all times. Why should He do this?
Agnostic's Corner (Is God real?)
- Thread starter Australia Sucks
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You keep speaking as if it's self-evident that God should equally reveal Himself obviously to everyone everywhere at all times. Why should He do this?
First of all, capitalize God.
Second, if God wanted Angels he would make Angels. But Angels did not have a choice whether or not to believe. Angels had a choice on whether or not to obey. Humans get both choices; humans are therefore given perfect free will. Angels have an imperfect free will, they were created for a specific automatic purpose.
Angels rebelled precisely BECAUSE they were not given the same level of love as Humans, who were given more freedom than Angels were. Satan essentially wanted revenge against God to show what a mistake this would be, and tricked Adam and Eve into disobedience, so that they would lose direct access to God and thereby lose proof of God. This was done in order to try and hurt God by harming his most beloved creation.
So, it is because God loves us with a perfect love that he does not directly reveal himself to us, because God wants to see which of us are actually good humans to return the love back to God. If God did not give us the ability to reject, then it would not be perfect love.
This is a great question. If you don't believe in God then what do you believe? My foray into atheism led me down a path toward hedonism and nihilism, which is certainly nothing to aspire towards. I began to realize that there is so much evil in the world, pure evil, and for what? There has to be a holy counter balance to that. If you believe in nothing, then what is stopping you from practicing dark arts, especially if it benefits you in some way. There is an HBO show being advertised now (Hysteria!) where some kids decide to start a Satanist metal band because it will make them popular and successful. Drag shows somehow bring in a wide audience of female spectators. Why not do these things? I believe it's because you innately know that it's wrong and that is the influence of God's presence. Even famous atheist richard dawkins now considers himself a "cultural Christian" (lol, what a fraud!)
Ugh, 'cultural Christians'...they love eating apples, they want to continue eating apples, but at the same time they want all apple trees cut down. It doesn't make sense.
They think if they remove religion then we get Star Trek. No, you get the Soviet Union, Mao's China, the Khmer Rouge and millions of dead bodies.
They think if they remove religion then we get Star Trek. No, you get the Soviet Union, Mao's China, the Khmer Rouge and millions of dead bodies.
Great answer earlier that all the different religions can be explained that they are led by other real entities. My only question is if god is real which i do believe why does it apear that his followers are being crushed under the weight of the rest of the world. And if nothing changes will be wiped out. I do not understand why god would not intervene. We are closing in on a point of no return. If christianity(whites) are gone then this world is truly lost. good and evil being a power struggle makes sense, i do not expect there to be no evil but evil dominating this world entirely i do not understand why that would be allowed to happen. Maybe it is too soon to tell and many things will change but this is just looking at the current trajectory.
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Iakobos
Orthodox
Very similar to my path. If you are an intellectually honest atheist and hold that life has no inherent purpose and existence is non-teleological, you are forced to eventually come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is maximize your pleasure and comfort, and prolong death as long as you can. That, or suicide.
This is all prophesied in the book of Revelation. Things can stand to get a lot worse before Christians are truly in danger of perishing (which of course God will not allow). True Christians will be exiled from society by the mark of the beast, of which we've seen precursors but not the real deal yet.
Matthew 24 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Take heart. Suffering is what brings one close to God and the holiest monks thank God for the trials He sends them. (I'm still working on this part though.)
I am just humble enough to admit I do not have the answers.
Because it is not God's will to reveal Himself to all and make it plain to everybody. Some Christians can speak like that, but the Bible plainly says the opposite. In this creation, God is making His will known. Grace to those who believe. Judgement for those who don't. Christians, including myself, want you to believe so that you will not face God's judgement but ultimately it's in God's hands.
As for Agnosticism itself, it is fundamentally an incoherent worldview. Because while saying that you do not know if God exists, you still assume that there is right and wrong in the world and live your life accordingly, which can only be if God does in fact exist.
What one man considers to be right another man considers to be wrong so I do not see the point you are making.
The point is that you already believe in morality without justifiable cause. You may say that morality is subjective, but this is demonstrably false from human experience. You still rely on other people doing the "right" thing and you will still call others out for doing the "wrong" thing. Clearly, there is a higher foundation for morality that people assume when dealing with others, namely God. The only question is if someone is aware that God provides the foundation for morality, or if they are unaware of it, but will assume it regardless.
For example, if someone were to rob you, you wouldn't say "I don't know if what the robbers did is wrong" even though that would be consistent with your Agnosticism. Rather, you would say that the robber is wrong to rob you and you would like to see justice for it because you do live in a world that is imbued with meaning by God.
Humans evolved with some baseline level of morality to be able to function as tribes/societies etc. You could argue it was an evolutionary process or that humans were imbued with an innate sense of morality by god. Just because you could argue that there is a baseline sense of the concept of morality in humans it doesn't mean that logically follows its attributable to god.
The problem is that Christians cannot provide sufficient hard scientific evidence for their belief in a Christian god.
It doesn't make sense to say that evolution is the justification for morality even in the Darwinian paradigm since to act according to the survival of the fittest would be to act in an immoral way. Morality itself is one of the greatest proofs that societies do not live according to the evolutionary paradigm.
It is logical if the alternative justifications, such as evolution, are shown to be impossible.
The truth is that there is no evidence that an atheist would be willing to accept since their fundamental presupposition already assumes that God does not exist. Since you brought up science, the scientific method itself would not be possible in a world without God.
Iakobos
Orthodox
Any scientific evidence would be automatically rejected by you as being impossible, and you would justify this as saying "I have no alternative explanation but Science will explain it someday." Creation itself is scientific evidence of a Creator which you ignore when it's raised despite lacking an alternative Scientific explanation. It may not PROVE the Creator but it is absolutely evidence to any nonbiased person.
Science is building a 'best model' based on our observations. It appears to me that you ab initio dismiss the existence of the Christian God as an alternative possibility to his nonexistence. You prefer your own faith that Science will eventually come up with alternate explanations that don't involve God. I used to approach this topic the same way when I was an atheist and it led me to speak like you. I don't mean this in a condescending way though I'm sure it comes off like that.
The Scientific atheist has no Scientific explanation for existence, there no Scientific explanation for the origin of life, there is no Scientific explanation for the advanced consciousness that separates men from animals. And there never will be, this is not the role of Science. It is the role of spiritual revelation to man's heart.
Right underneath your post, GodfatherPartTwo explain how Christians in fact acknowledge, in submission to God, that they do not and will not have all the answers regarding the exact details of God's plan for humanity's salvation. It is you who is demanding all the answers. Don't get me wrong, your questions are fair and I invite them. But if you are actually interested to explore Christianity and not just debunk it (by all means clarify because I'm not interested to engage with a deboonker), you have to "try it on," so to speak.
I don't want to pile on you Australia cause I know it's only you on one side of this discussion against an entire forum of Christians, and while I've been harsh to you, I see a lot of my younger self in you as well.
Here is my absolute most important advice I could give you if you want to understand the truth of Christ:
You have to willfully force yourself accept the possibility of God's existence as true, even if you consider it to be a temporary experiment. Then read the Gospels (they're not long and quite readable), visit a Divine Liturgy (even if you simply view it as an experiment). This will start opening up all sorts of insights into the truth. I know it's a lot of work but it's only the meaning of human existence, it's fair to expect some effort to be involved.
On the other hand if you refuse to truly, in your heart, be open to God being real and Christ being His son, it's purposeless and will only strengthen your atheism. I know this firsthand.
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Scientific analysis is incapable of explaining anything significant.
Prove to us, scientifically, that murder is wrong. Or that theft is wrong. Or that you love your mother.
Prove that the color yellow is the same color as my yellow I see. Prove that 'you' exist, whatever your 'self' is.
The fact is, none of these things can be proven because it relies on experience that is not sensory, which is why scientific explanations always will fall flat.
This isn't even remotely true. The vast majority of prehistoric human societies had no concept of property. Theft was not a crime unless the chieftain claimed it.
Romans did not care about murder, they watched it for fun in the colosseum. Tons of historical examples which show just how relative morality is.
Our morality does not exist without Christ, and, it is superior to all others, which is why you seek women from Christian or formerly Christian cultures. You're simply denying reality at this point.
So you admit that you cannot really be sure that Christianity is real?
Within the Christian paradigm, it can be known that the God of the Bible does exist. In fact, even non-believers have an awareness that they are created by God, even though they suppress that truth in unrighteousness and suffer from spiritual delusion. It is this delusion that Christians are trying to save you from. I don't wish to dogpile you either. If you sense any frustration on our part, then understand it to be like the frustration of a lifeguard who is trying to save someone from drowning but is being wrestled against by the person they're trying to pull out of the water.
Within the Agnostic and Atheist paradigm, there is not even a foundation for objective truth at all. Though this will not stop atheists and agnostics from continuing to live their lives as if objective truth is a reality. This is because it is an inescapable reality that we live in God's world and are His creation.
Same thats why i just follow people smarter and wiser than myself. Smart enough to discern reasonably well what info is good or not and then incorporate it. Not smart enough to figure everything out on your own, why try to reinvent the wheel. We also dont need all the answers and an explanation for everything. Its not practical for normal people trying to live their life and better reserved for specialists like priests, scholars, philosophers who can then spread the essentials to us. Intuition and gut feeling are often enough or better to discern good from evil in daily life look at how many people today are led down the wrong path because they are so stuck on words and explanations ( trust the science ).
Christians aren't motivated by finding hard scientific evidence to prove that God exists because that goes against having faith. On the other hand atheist scientists would love to find hard scientific evidence to prove that God does not exist and they have not been able to do so.
The elites are telling us in public that God does not exist but in private are worshipping satan themselves. You would think they have acces to the best knowledge and explanations in the world.
So many puzzle pieces are there all pointing to the same thing, its just that the puzzle can never be completed fully and form the whole picture and thats where the faith comes in. If the whole image was there it would be easy. followers would have no way to prove themselves loyal.
To put it in manosphere terms same as a woman having an easy time ''loving'' a famous rich man. You would not know if she is genuine. And precisely why some men are afraid of gold diggers. You want a girl that loves you and is loyal when you have nothing material or wordly to offer. That is how she proves her love and faith in you.
having faith can be hard especially while suffering. And this is something i struggle with myself. Not the explanation for Gods existence or logic part. but keeping faith when everything is going against you. And that is probably the whole point.
@Iakobos Yes probably it will make more sense once i actually read the whole bible. Started on it again.
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Did I? I don't think you are really listening to what I fully wrote and are cherry picking my story for a "gotcha" moment to fit your lack of belief in God narrative and to justify your lust for young virgins and belief that money can buy you one.
The fact that you call yourself "agnostic" when you have the rebellious God denying spirit of an atheist, while talking incessantly about moving half way around the world from your family to a Christian country because "Australia Sucks" due to globohomo atheism so you can marry a young beautiful Christian women who is a virgin because she is a Christian is the height of demonically influenced hypocrisy.
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Shaquilleoatmeal
Protestant
Adam and Eve were aware God existed because of direct contact with him. They did not have the choice to believe or not. They were similar to the Angels in that their choice was to obey or not. So did Adam and Eve not have this “perfect free will?”
