Nicotine addiction

Batman said:
Nicotine is getting a resurgence I think. A lot of the claims surrounding it are simply not true, I don't think we can even conclusively say if it's carcinogenic or not. There is some cardiotoxicity from it and I know it can effect blood pressure and heart function but if you use it in moderation I don't think it's an issue. I do also recall that nicotine increases a protein called Delta Fos-B which is implicated in dopamine response in the prefrontal cortex, this has some implications too. A quick chat GPT summary:

  • Dopamine Regulation: DeltaFosB enhances the sensitivity of neurons to dopamine. This increased sensitivity can lead to a stronger response to the presence of dopamine, amplifying the reward sensation that nicotine (or other addictive substances) produces.
  • Behavioral Sensitization: As DeltaFosB accumulates, it can lead to behavioral sensitization, where the individual becomes increasingly sensitive to the effects of the drug. This means that even with the same amount of nicotine, the brain’s reward system might produce a stronger response over time.
  • Long-Term Changes: DeltaFosB also induces long-term changes in gene expression that contribute to the persistence of addictive behaviors. For example, it can promote the expression of certain proteins that make the brain more responsive to nicotine, making it harder for someone to quit.
  • Cross-Sensitization: Interestingly, DeltaFosB’s effects are not limited to nicotine. It can also sensitize the brain to other addictive substances, which is one reason why individuals who are addicted to one substance might be more susceptible to becoming addicted to another.
If you're going to use nicotine you should not use it long term and if you have had a history of substance abuse (even caffeine) it can increase your chances of other addictions occuring. So, be mindful of how much/how long you use it, and which route of administration you go with. Vape pens are absolutely horrible though and I would strongly advise against them.

I do go through periods of using lozenges or recently, Zyn, which I didn't know was just nicotine salts, not chewless tobacco. I used to use Swedish snus, which is arguably one of the safest forms of any nicotine/tobacco product, but it's getting taken off the market now so Zyn/lozenges is a good alternative. Zyn is better bang for your buck but more addicting than lozenges. If you can afford lozenges, do it. Ideally, patches are actually the safest and least addictive option, but they're quite expensive.

The thing I've noticed about nicotine too, at least for me, is that I can quit it cold turkey and feel no withdrawals. I think it's entirely psychological. It definitely has its uses, it's particularly great for long motorcycle rides or road trips, or just maintaining productivity. But, I have noticed that I had similar mindset to justify using other drugs (kratom, pot) in the past, and it's possible I am deluding myself now in the same way as with nicotine. Thing is though nicotine has proven neurocognitive benefits that can justify it. There's even evidence it can ward off cognitive decline/dementia. So you gotta take the bad with the good. Andrew Huberman even uses nicotine himself though he also admits to using only 2mg of gum a few times a week, but he may just be sensitive to it. I always seemed to need to use a lot to really notice anything.
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I got awful withdrawals from going off nicotine, particularly depression. It's mostly from maxing out your dopamine receptors and then removing the source of dopamine. It's dangerous really to get huge hits of dopamine from an activity that requires no effort as it will mess with your motivation.

I also got so anxious at times I relapsed into alcohol to take the edge off the nicotine anxiety. Just awful. I'm staying away from these demonic super stimulants.

Yes Huberman was taking it but he was taking 1mg and only that daily. If you can moderate to such low amounts, go for it. I always end up consuming it non stop but the positive effects soon wear off and I am just taking it to not have to deal with the withdrawals.

A big reason for taking it in my case is boredom. But it's such a dumb thing to do because you are getting this amped up stimulation but not really doing anything. Much better to get a change in emotional state by doing something different than relying on drugs.
 
Tippy said:
I got awful withdrawals from going off nicotine, particularly depression. It's mostly from maxing out your dopamine receptors and then removing the source of dopamine. It's dangerous really to get huge hits of dopamine from an activity that requires no effort as it will mess with your motivation.

I also got so anxious at times I relapsed into alcohol to take the edge off the nicotine anxiety. Just awful. I'm staying away from these demonic super stimulants.

Yes Huberman was taking it but he was taking 1mg and only that daily. If you can moderate to such low amounts, go for it. I always end up consuming it non stop but the positive effects soon wear off and I am just taking it to not have to deal with the withdrawals.

A big reason for taking it in my case is boredom. But it's such a dumb thing to do because you are getting this amped up stimulation but not really doing anything. Much better to get a change in emotional state by doing something different than relying on drugs.
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Idk how he notices anything from it from 1mg. Even after months or years off, I would need to take 6-8mg of a lozenges to notice anything.

I find it helps to use nicotine as a reward or to enhance certain activities. It's really, really enjoyable after a workout. I also tend to use it on road trips or when motorcycling to stay sharp. It's indeed abysmal to use it passively you're bored, just laying around at home on the couch. Huberman has talked about this, when you get an immediate dopaminergic response from nothing, instead of from goal-seeking / effort-based behavior, it completely messes with your reward system.

If you want a tip for withdrawals, Bupropion (Wellbutrin) can help a lot. It's an atypical antidepressant (not SSRI) which are the goats of antidepressants. It has the added benefit of being a nicotine receptor antagonist, and is even prescribed as a smoking cessation aid. If you take it, it will severely reduce, or even nullify the effect of nicotine. It's imperitive that you continue using the nicotine, because your brain will begin to associate the nicotine with no reward, which will lead to decreased cravings. NAC might also help too, and much easier to get your hands on. But, I bet if you talked to a family doctor about a nicotine addiction, most would be willing to prescribe it. Say what you will about doctors and pharmaceutical drugs, but they're not all bad, and they do have their uses.
 
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About a year ago, I did a deep dive into nicotine and some of the health benefits (such as it can help prevent Covid, reduce chance of developing dementia, nootropic effects at low dose, etc.). At first I used low doses (around 1.5 mg) for nootropic effects and it felt great, motivating. Keep in mind I never really smoked, except once in a blue moon I'd have a cigar or something.

Using it "once in a while" for a nootropic boost ended up becoming an addiction. I worked my way up to having around 40-60 mg a day, mostly pouches and the mints (Nic Nac Naturals, which are definitely one of the least harmful ways to do nicotine IMO). It started messing up my energy levels, making me have anxiety, and I started to feel tension in my chest. I cut down a lot, I now do about half of that and all the side effects went away. I plan to eventually quit but I am going to wait until I have a vacation break from work. At least I got it down to a more manageable dose, and I rarely do pouches anymore I stick to the Nic Nac mints, which have no synthetic crap in them.

For those who never started - don't. The small boost I got initially which helped me be productive and happier went away before long, and now I just have an addiction to it. Some people get really bad symptoms from oral nicotine, especially really high doses, so it is not "harmless." It is a vasoconstrictor, which is why people get tensions or pains in their chest. If you are going to do nicotine, try to be healthy in other ways. I recommend taking some herbs or foods that dilate the blood vessels to balance the vasoconstricting property of nicotine. Having a nice hot chocolate (raw cacao, not the processed crap) or hibiscus tea are some of my favorite vasodilating drinks. I swear, it makes the nicotine "work better" too, but maybe that is placebo. I also take ginkgo to help with circulation.
 
Hannibal said:
I use swedish snus. Nicotine for me helps me to concentrate on solitary tasks for long periods of time, as I currently do maintenance and repair for a lab and I am a one man team.

I have no desire to quit, however your anxiety and other psychological problems are probably from using too much of it. I use, fairly consistently, 8 to 10 of the pouches a day at a 8 to 9mg nicotine strength. It has been months and the use has not increased. Before then, I smoked a pack a day for well over ten years. Swedish snus is a night and day difference for me compared to cigarettes.
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It has been 6 months since this post and my useage has not increased. If anything, total useage has decreased because some days I don't even use it.

My gums have not receded (any more than they already were). No cavities either. It takes me 3 days or so to go through a can, so I'm spending a whopping 9 dollars a week, compared to the 70 or so dollars a week I was spending on cigarettes.

My favorites so far are göteborgs rapé, odens cold, general snus original, and vita mint regular strength. I have not tried much in the way of loose snus yet, next time I order more I am buying a prismaster or a portioner because I find it very easy to overdo the size of the pinch.

If they ever make it illegal to import here, I am simply going to make it at home. It is easy to make with a pressure cooker and even a bag of the shredded pipe tobacco will do as a main ingredient.

Portions are very convenient for work but you can use a corner of a coffee filter or a rolling paper to achieve a similar effect. Only other ingredient is washing soda, which is just baking soda that's been cooked in an oven for a time. Extras would be flavorings, absolutely do not use any sugary substance for flavor, you will rot your teeth.
 
I believe that any type of smoking.... cigarettes, stogies, and vapes does damage to your teeth and gums. I limit myself to one cigar on the weekends. It sure does taste good and relaxing.
 
mountainaire said:
I switched from zyn to snus. I also cut way down, from nearly 1 can a day to 1 pouch a day.

When you overdo it, it's not enjoyable anymore. Now, though I have to battle through the cravings most of the day, I now get to have that "moment" again where I actually get to enjoy it.
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My partner just created a cloned brand of zyn, how quickly people develop a tolerance to it and need higher and higher doses is pretty crazy. God give you strength brother.
 
Hannibal said:
It has been 6 months since this post and my useage has not increased. If anything, total useage has decreased because some days I don't even use it.

My gums have not receded (any more than they already were). No cavities either. It takes me 3 days or so to go through a can, so I'm spending a whopping 9 dollars a week, compared to the 70 or so dollars a week I was spending on cigarettes.

My favorites so far are göteborgs rapé, odens cold, general snus original, and vita mint regular strength. I have not tried much in the way of loose snus yet, next time I order more I am buying a prismaster or a portioner because I find it very easy to overdo the size of the pinch.

If they ever make it illegal to import here, I am simply going to make it at home. It is easy to make with a pressure cooker and even a bag of the shredded pipe tobacco will do as a main ingredient.

Portions are very convenient for work but you can use a corner of a coffee filter or a rolling paper to achieve a similar effect. Only other ingredient is washing soda, which is just baking soda that's been cooked in an oven for a time. Extras would be flavorings, absolutely do not use any sugary substance for flavor, you will rot your teeth.
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I hope someone in America starts a business of making high quality snus / tobacco pouches, since I do not know of any. I haven't really wanted to try the American snus / tobacco pouches because I've heard the quality isn't that good. I should have ordered some Swedish snus before the recent ban, but it looks like General snus still is available.

FrancisK said:
My partner just created a cloned brand of zyn, how quickly people develop a tolerance to it and need higher and higher doses is pretty crazy. God give you strength brother.
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Yeah, it's crazy. You can order 50mg pouches online. Even if you only absorb 1/2 of that, that is like smoking 15 cigarettes at once. Seems like a terrible idea. I am discovering with nicotine that less is more -- even if I get less of a "buzz" from lower doses of nicotine, it is a more productive and stable boost with less side effects. I don't think the body is designed to get a huge dump of nicotine all at once. If you think about it, smoking tobacco or using it as a dip will release pretty slowly, but nicotine pouches hit really quick. I've read a lot of reports of people who did a lot of pouches, especially the high mg ones, developing chest pains, anxiety, energy issues, etc. I have seen that vaping high potency juice can also do that, so I think it must have to do with getting too much nicotine at once, since people don't get that way from cigarettes, dip, and snus as much.
 
Knight.of.Logos said:
I hope someone in America starts a business of making high quality snus / tobacco pouches, since I do not know of any. I haven't really wanted to try the American snus / tobacco pouches because I've heard the quality isn't that good. I should have ordered some Swedish snus before the recent ban, but it looks like General snus still is available.


Yeah, it's crazy. You can order 50mg pouches online. Even if you only absorb 1/2 of that, that is like smoking 15 cigarettes at once. Seems like a terrible idea. I am discovering with nicotine that less is more -- even if I get less of a "buzz" from lower doses of nicotine, it is a more productive and stable boost with less side effects. I don't think the body is designed to get a huge dump of nicotine all at once. If you think about it, smoking tobacco or using it as a dip will release pretty slowly, but nicotine pouches hit really quick. I've read a lot of reports of people who did a lot of pouches, especially the high mg ones, developing chest pains, anxiety, energy issues, etc. I have seen that vaping high potency juice can also do that, so I think it must have to do with getting too much nicotine at once, since people don't get that way from cigarettes, dip, and snus as much.
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Are you in the US? I was unaware of any ban.
 
I have basically quit but also relapsed many times with cheeky binges or just weeks at a time where I moderated my use.

The pouches are in my opinion worse than cigarettes. Worse feeling and way more addictive. I think because they are so insidious and easy to hide.

The buzz is way stronger but so is the irritation and negative side effects.

Sometimes crushing a can can be 'fun' or more just...a self-indulgent activity. Being hooked on the pouches means being basically permanently miserable. Once I started taking them later into the evening it would ruin my sleep so much that I would wake up and honestly feel like I haven't slep a second at all.

I enjoy a cigarette or cigar nicotine buzz and partly it is the whole ritual of going outside, lighting it, sitting outside and contemplating while smoking. There's something...comforting about that. Shoving a bag of drugs in your gums just doesn't have that.
 
Tippy said:
I have basically quit but also relapsed many times with cheeky binges or just weeks at a time where I moderated my use.

The pouches are in my opinion worse than cigarettes. Worse feeling and way more addictive. I think because they are so insidious and easy to hide.

The buzz is way stronger but so is the irritation and negative side effects.

Sometimes crushing a can can be 'fun' or more just...a self-indulgent activity. Being hooked on the pouches means being basically permanently miserable. Once I started taking them later into the evening it would ruin my sleep so much that I would wake up and honestly feel like I haven't slep a second at all.

I enjoy a cigarette or cigar nicotine buzz and partly it is the whole ritual of going outside, lighting it, sitting outside and contemplating while smoking. There's something...comforting about that. Shoving a bag of drugs in your gums just doesn't have that.
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I'm with you here. For me cigarettes also are harsh enough on my system that I can't chainsmoke, when I vaped I would be hitting it ALL the time and my nicotine intake skyrocketed. In recent times I was able to have a steady habit of 1-3 cigs a day and able to skip days without getting irritable etc. although I had to stop because of unrelated health issues.

So I've come to the conclusion that cigs are actually one of the least harmful ways to imbibe if you can moderate. And at least around where I live, the need to go outside or to a designated area, the stink and the stigma, help to moderate. But wouldn't recommend to anyone who hasn't started nicotine in general.
 
Knight.of.Logos said:
Yeah. It's not a ban on all snus, just certain brands. I was going to order some Swedish snus the other day, but I noticed that the websites weren't shipping to USA so I looked it up.

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Interesting. I ordered a few months ago and I was able to get some goeteborgs. I'll have to check some of my websites to see if they will no longer ship.

Edit, just checked. Yeah, looks like they're really clamping down on imports. Well, that tears it, looks like I'm making my own when I run out in six months.
 
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I'm currently trying to quit by tapering off. I'm only going to use lozenges now and start limiting how many I take per day. I think after a month or so of tapering I should be able to quit CT pretty easily. You can find some fairly cheap lozenges online if you look around. I got 108 4mg lozenges for only $30. I don't know if I'll quit for good, but I'll be curious how I feel off of it.

I do agree Zynn is probably as addictive as vapes, problem is that the delivery is very quick and it hits you strong - I can still get nic sick from the 6mg sometimes despite my super high tolerance. The quicker the onset the more addictive something is, as a general rule. At least zynn doesn't mess with your lungs, but Zynn is super expensive too.

I wish Swedish snus was still available, for some reason I never got addicted to it, probably because it's a very slow and steady absorption and using too much is generally unpleasant. And since it's actual tobacco it has some pleasant mood brightening effects from MAOI, which make it more enjoyable than pure nicotine. I really liked general snus.
 
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Batman said:
I'm currently trying to quit by tapering off. I'm only going to use lozenges now and start limiting how many I take per day. I think after a month or so of tapering I should be able to quit CT pretty easily. You can find some fairly cheap lozenges online if you look around. I got 108 4mg lozenges for only $30. I don't know if I'll quit for good, but I'll be curious how I feel off of it.

I do agree Zynn is probably as addictive as vapes, problem is that the delivery is very quick and it hits you strong - I can still get nic sick from the 6mg sometimes despite my super high tolerance. The quicker the onset the more addictive something is, as a general rule. At least zynn doesn't mess with your lungs, but Zynn is super expensive too.

I wish Swedish snus was still available, for some reason I never got addicted to it, probably because it's a very slow and steady absorption and using too much is generally unpleasant. And since it's actual tobacco it has some pleasant mood brightening effects from MAOI, which make it more enjoyable than pure nicotine. I really liked general snus.
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General Snus is still available for sale in the USA. I believe it's the only Swedish product that they sell in stores in America, though I could be wrong.

Store Locator

Quickly find where you can buy snus near you with our easy-to-use store locator. You must be an adult tobacco consumer 21 years of age or older to access this site.
www.generalsnus.com www.generalsnus.com

That is interesting about the MAOI component of tobacco. That makes sense why I always feel really relaxed but focused with a cigar, but the nicotine pouches don't have as much of the relaxation component.
 
Knight.of.Logos said:
General Snus is still available for sale in the USA. I believe it's the only Swedish product that they sell in stores in America, though I could be wrong.

Store Locator

Quickly find where you can buy snus near you with our easy-to-use store locator. You must be an adult tobacco consumer 21 years of age or older to access this site.
www.generalsnus.com www.generalsnus.com

That is interesting about the MAOI component of tobacco. That makes sense why I always feel really relaxed but focused with a cigar, but the nicotine pouches don't have as much of the relaxation component.
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Here is an article that tells you where you can still get swedish snus shipped to the US. The one website has like a bulk generic bags of portions. Very cheap but you're probably not going to get the same flavors as the more name brand stuff.
 
Have any of you tried Tucker's brand of nicotine pouches ALP?

I bought a 5 tin package of assorted flavors and thought they were excellent. Moist and flavorful, but not overwhelming. I just use the 3mg pouch, because I'm not trying to go back where I've been.

It was funny to see RFK Jr with his ALP at his confirmation hearing. I felt like Dicaprio in Once Upon a Time In Hollywood.

 
I was able to get some General snus in the local gas station. I really enjoy all the ones I tried -- original, white, and mint. Still have yet to try the wintergreen. Snus is a vastly superior product to nicotine pouches. It's been around for way longer (since the 1800s), has less side effects, tastes better, lasts longer. It's about ~$7 a can here, compared to $6 for a can of Zyn, but the snus has 24 pouches vs. Zyn has 15, plus since the snus lasts longer, I use less. Better all around product. I am just going to stick to these and the Nic Nac Naturals until I quit. I wish they didn't just ban other snus from Sweden, but I am content just with the different flavors of General.
 
Knight.of.Logos said:
General Snus is still available for sale in the USA. I believe it's the only Swedish product that they sell in stores in America, though I could be wrong.

Store Locator

Quickly find where you can buy snus near you with our easy-to-use store locator. You must be an adult tobacco consumer 21 years of age or older to access this site.
www.generalsnus.com www.generalsnus.com

That is interesting about the MAOI component of tobacco. That makes sense why I always feel really relaxed but focused with a cigar, but the nicotine pouches don't have as much of the relaxation component.
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I've used that store locator, it's outdated. Several months ago I went on a hunt to several different stores and none of them had it. I talked to a couple cashiers at gas stations that normally stocked it, and they said they won't be stocking it ever again. I'm sure you can still find it at it some places, but eventually it will become harder and harder to get your hands on it, so I figure I should just give it up now. I'm pretty sure the only reason it is no longer sold in the US is because it was such a massive threat to big tobacco.

It's possible a grey market vendor will start selling it. You can still get your hands on those old school supplements like Phenibut, DMHA, etc from legitimate clearnet grey market vendors, despite them not technically not being legal to be sold as a dietary supplement. I'll keep my eyes open.

And yeah, MAOIs were one of the first prescribed antidepressants, they're pretty simple and effective, though I'm pretty sure the ones they prescribed were a lot stronger than the ones in tobacco. MAOIs are also in coffee to a lesser extent, which is one of the reasons why coffee feels different than pure caffeine.
 
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