Sleep

Batman

Batman

Orthodox Inquirer
Heritage
As someone who has dealt with insomnia and DSPD for about 20 years, I can give some tips as I've learned a lot over the years. Before that, I did want to illustrate how rough sleeping is for me in case anyone can relate to this.

I cannot sleep before midnight, no matter what. Been this way since high school. Typically, i can only fall asleep after 1-2am.
I cannot sleep in rooms above ~68F or in any environment that isn't completely pitch black.
I cannot sleep with another person in the room or in strange/new environments. This includes hotels, airplanes, cars, and pretty much everything except my own bedroom.
I cannot sleep on an empty stomach
I cannot sleep after taking sleep "medication" or after drinking alcohol in any amount (failing to both fall asleep and stay asleep). To be clear, even under perfect conditions, these actually worsen my insomnia and I can't even pass out, let alone sleep.


I've had a number of absurd experiences that further highlight my struggles, here's 3 examples.

1: One summer I went 3 nights in a row without sleep. On the 4th day, I went to a waterpark, swimming and walking all day in the sun - my friends fell asleep in the car on the ride home, and I was wide awake.

2: Took a motorcycle trip on a hot summer day, riding for about 8 hours in the sun. No timezone change. First night in the hotel, I get about 30 minutes of sleep over the course of 12 hours. On day 2, I go on 12 mi hike and get back to the hotel and eat a big meal and have a good amount of time to wind down. Get about 1-2 hrs of sleep on the 2nd night because hotel.

3: Took a trip overseas. Between layover and airtime, total trip was 14 hours. Left at 5pm, arrived at destination at 7am. Zero sleep on plane. Spent entire day walking around outside, and in the evening I had several drinks and a heavy meal. Get home to hotel around 2am, and I cannot fall asleep until about 6am, at which point I get about 1 or 2 hrs of sleep. I proceed to spend the next 5 getting about 2hrs of sleep each night, with 0.0 minutes of sleep on the red eye flight back.

Many more examples like this, but you get the idea.

I have several bullet points I can discuss for optimizing sleep, some of these may not be relevant to you, but others might.

  • Caffeine definitely effects sleep and probably more than you think. Usually I try to make my cutoff around 1 or 2pm if I want to be able to sleep in 12 hrs. Some people process caffeine much quicker, and may be able to get away with it later in the day. However, it can still effect your sleep quality even if you are able to fall asleep.
  • Sedation is NOT sleep. Your brain is actually more active at sleep than it is during wakefulness. If you sedate yourself with drugs or alcohol, it's not real sleep. Don't do it. It goes without saying that alcohol is bad for sleep. You may find it helps you fall asleep, but it's likely you will wake up earlier than normal and have generally poor quality sleep. Same goes for any sleep drug - again, sedation is not sleep.
  • Supplements: zinc, magnesium glycinate, apigenin, lemon balm, lavender, ashwagandha, 5-htp, and melatonin may prove usefulg, among others. I personally take zinc and magnesium glycinate regularly and sometimes lavender tea. I generally find melatonin to be underwhelming, but as of late I use a liquid dropper formula from life extension that seems to work magic. Make sure you keep the dose under 1mg. The standard dose confirmed in studies is 300mcg. Most melatonin is severely overdosed, sometimes as much as 10mg which is over 30x the optimal dose. Less is more.
  • Blue light exposure: Blue light supresses melatonin and signals to your brain to stay awake irrespective of that. Use redshifting and light dimming software on your personal devices. For me, I redshift and dim all my screens about 3-4 hrs before bed.
  • Darkness Turn off all your lights. Dim lighting is okay. Do not watch TV (unless you can redshift/dim it) and do not leave any bright lights on. Use blackout curtains or a good quality sleep mask; I use both.
  • Keep your home cooled. It's been proven that cold temps signal the body to sleep. I think studies show high 60s are ideal, personally I enjoy high 50s or low 60s though. I also sleep in minimal bedding in just my boxers
  • Hot showers before bed relax the body and reduces body temperature afterwards, which directly signals to your body to prepare for sleep. A hot bath with magnesium salts (epsom salts) is even better. A sauna may work for this too.
  • Your bed and pillows and bedding don't need to be fancy or expensive. Just use whatever you like.
  • Sunlight is imporant. Try to get outside after waking up, and around sunset. This helps your circadian rhythm function properly. I do not know how this works for early risers who wake up before dawn - but probably is still best for your eyes to get exposed to bright light, if not from the sun from an artificial source.
  • Food. This one is subjective. But the idea that eating late at night can cause health problems/weight gain is largely nonsense. I find eating a light meal about 2 hrs before bed helps a lot, like a healthy cereal. Do whatever works for you and ignore whatever people may tell you.
  • Don't sleep with your phone in your bedroom. I'm not sure of this one applies to others, but I find my sleep is significantly better if I leave my phone in another room. I use a basic digital alarm clock instead.
  • Psychological routines: This one is more complex and has a lot to it. Develop a "wind down" activity such as reading or listening to podcasts, lectures, audiobooks, whatever, and do it outside of your room. Do not go to bed until you are actually ready to fall asleep. You will begin to associate your bed with sleep, and your chair/couch/etc with relaxation. Generally it's a bad idea to read in bed, though some people seem to make it work. If you cannot sleep do not stay in bed, get up and do something light until you feel sleepy again.
  • If anyone has DSPD, you should base all your life decisions around your natural sleep-wake times (chronotypes). To address my DSPD, I refuse to work any jobs that start earlier than 10am. Non negotiable for me. One solution is to working remote jobs based out of a different time zone.
There's a lot more I could say but i'll open the rest of this to any discussion surrounding sleep optimization.
 
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Batman said:
As someone who has dealt with insomnia and DSPD for about 20 years, I can give some tips as I've learned a lot over the years. Before that, I did want to illustrate how rough sleeping is for me in case anyone can relate to this.

I cannot sleep before midnight, no matter what. Been this way since high school. Typically, i can only fall asleep after 1-2am.
I cannot sleep in rooms above ~68F or in any environment that isn't completely pitch black.
I cannot sleep with another person in the room or in strange/new environments. This includes hotels, airplanes, cars, and pretty much everything except my own bedroom.
I cannot sleep on an empty stomach
I cannot sleep after taking sleep "medication" or after drinking alcohol in any amount (failing to both fall asleep and stay asleep). To be clear, even under perfect conditions, these actually worsen my insomnia and I can't even pass out, let alone sleep.


I've had a number of absurd experiences that further highlight my struggles, here's 3 examples.

1: One summer I went 3 nights in a row without sleep. On the 4th day, I went to a waterpark, swimming and walking all day in the sun - my friends fell asleep in the car on the ride home, and I was wide awake.

2: Took a motorcycle trip on a hot summer day, riding for about 8 hours in the sun. No timezone change. First night in the hotel, I get about 30 minutes of sleep over the course of 12 hours. On day 2, I go on 12 mi hike and get back to the hotel and eat a big meal and have a good amount of time to wind down. Get about 1-2 hrs of sleep on the 2nd night because hotel.

3: Took a trip overseas. Between layover and airtime, total trip was 14 hours. Left at 5pm, arrived at destination at 7am. Zero sleep on plane. Spent entire day walking around outside, and in the evening I had several drinks and a heavy meal. Get home to hotel around 2am, and I cannot fall asleep until about 6am, at which point I get about 1 or 2 hrs of sleep. I proceed to spend the next 5 getting about 2hrs of sleep each night, with 0.0 minutes of sleep on the red eye flight back.

Many more examples like this, but you get the idea.

I have several bullet points I can discuss for optimizing sleep, some of these may not be relevant to you, but others might.

  • Caffeine definitely effects sleep and probably more than you think. Usually I try to make my cutoff around 1 or 2pm if I want to be able to sleep in 12 hrs. Some people process caffeine much quicker, and may be able to get away with it later in the day. However, it can still effect your sleep quality even if you are able to fall asleep.
  • Sedation is NOT sleep. Your brain is actually more active at sleep than it is during wakefulness. If you sedate yourself with drugs or alcohol, it's not real sleep. Don't do it. It goes without saying that alcohol is bad for sleep. You may find it helps you fall asleep, but it's likely you will wake up earlier than normal and have generally poor quality sleep. Same goes for any sleep drug - again, sedation is not sleep.
  • Supplements: zinc, magnesium glycinate, apigenin, lemon balm, lavender, ashwagandha, 5-htp, and melatonin may prove usefulg, among others. I personally take zinc and magnesium glycinate regularly and sometimes lavender tea. I generally find melatonin to be underwhelming, but as of late I use a liquid dropper formula from life extension that seems to work magic. Make sure you keep the dose under 1mg. The standard dose confirmed in studies is 300mcg. Most melatonin is severely overdosed, sometimes as much as 10mg which is over 30x the optimal dose. Less is more.
  • Blue light exposure: Blue light supresses melatonin and signals to your brain to stay awake irrespective of that. Use redshifting and light dimming software on your personal devices. For me, I redshift and dim all my screens about 3-4 hrs before bed.
  • Darkness Turn off all your lights. Dim lighting is okay. Do not watch TV (unless you can redshift/dim it) and do not leave any bright lights on. Use blackout curtains or a good quality sleep mask; I use both.
  • Keep your home cooled. It's been proven that cold temps signal the body to sleep. I think studies show high 60s are ideal, personally I enjoy high 50s or low 60s though. I also sleep in minimal bedding in just my boxers
  • Hot showers before bed relax the body and reduces body temperature afterwards, which directly signals to your body to prepare for sleep. A hot bath with magnesium salts (epsom salts) is even better. A sauna may work for this too.
  • Your bed and pillows and bedding don't need to be fancy or expensive. Just use whatever you like.
  • Sunlight is imporant. Try to get outside after waking up, and around sunset. This helps your circadian rhythm function properly. I do not know how this works for early risers who wake up before dawn - but probably is still best for your eyes to get exposed to bright light, if not from the sun from an artificial source.
  • Food. This one is subjective. But the idea that eating late at night can cause health problems/weight gain is largely nonsense. I find eating a light meal about 2 hrs before bed helps a lot, like a healthy cereal. Do whatever works for you and ignore whatever people may tell you.
  • Don't sleep with your phone in your bedroom. I'm not sure of this one applies to others, but I find my sleep is significantly better if I leave my phone in another room. I use a basic digital alarm clock instead.
  • Psychological routines: This one is more complex and has a lot to it. Develop a "wind down" activity such as reading or listening to podcasts, lectures, audiobooks, whatever, and do it outside of your room. Do not go to bed until you are actually ready to fall asleep. You will begin to associate your bed with sleep, and your chair/couch/etc with relaxation. Generally it's a bad idea to read in bed, though some people seem to make it work. If you cannot sleep do not stay in bed, get up and do something light until you feel sleepy again.
  • If anyone has DSPD, you should base all your life decisions around your natural sleep-wake times (chronotypes). To address my DSPD, I refuse to work any jobs that start earlier than 10am. Non negotiable for me. One solution is to working remote jobs based out of a different time zone.
There's a lot more I could say but i'll open the rest of this to any discussion surrounding sleep optimization.
Click to expand...
I have an uncle like you he struggles too, very sensitive when it comes to sleep, must be terrible not to be able to sleep Iv only experienced this when forced to work late hours and wake up early and have babies crying during the night and no sleep is not fun, besides that I sleep right through 95% of the time, my biggest meal is actually supper, around 19:00 19:30, I can even have an esspresso before bed and be on my phone and sleep just fine, but others struggle, I can even sleep with the dogs barking outside, hearing your story I take my ability to sleep a blessing.

Can you nap easily during the day though? Have you ever read the bible and done prayers before bed? Also Im worried about you if you get married, have children and have to sleep next to your wife in the same bed😧
 
GoodShepherd said:
I have an uncle like you he struggles too, very sensitive when it comes to sleep, must be terrible not to be able to sleep Iv only experienced this when forced to work late hours and wake up early and have babies crying during the night and no sleep is not fun, besides that I sleep right through 95% of the time, my biggest meal is actually supper, around 19:00 19:30, I can even have an esspresso before bed and be on my phone and sleep just fine, but others struggle, I can even sleep with the dogs barking outside, hearing your story I take my ability to sleep a blessing.

Can you nap easily during the day though? Have you ever read the bible and done prayers before bed? Also Im worried about you if you get married, have children and have to sleep next to your wife in the same bed😧
Click to expand...

Thank you. And many people actually have it much worse than me which is harrowing to consider. I am either "conditionally" insomniac and ridiculously sensitive, or just really good relieving it with precise control of my environment and some discipline. It definitely is a blessing to be able to fall asleep easily without needing 15 crutches every night, so feel grateful for that!

It's quite rare for me to be able to nap in the day time, but once in a blue moon I can do it. Even when I do, I almost never actually fell asleep when napping, but more drift into a lower state of consciousness.

I have tried meditating before bed and that was not helpful but I can see prayer being effective if it soothes anxiety.

I have little desire to get married or even get a GF because I pretty much always get zero sleep if we share a bed. And they always take it personally that I don't want to do sleepovers. Puts a serious strain on the relationship and the whole situation is highly irritating.

If I ever got married, we would have to sleep in seperate bedrooms, non negotiable. Most women are not okay with this, but I'm sure some would accept it.
 
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Used to work night shifts and had my internal clock completely messed up - couldn't fall asleep even on days off. Taking naps helped a lot.
 
Batman said:
Thank you. And many people actually have it much worse than me which is harrowing to consider. I am either "conditionally" insomniac and ridiculously sensitive, or just really good relieving it with precise control of my environment and some discipline. It definitely is a blessing to be able to fall asleep easily without needing 15 crutches every night, so feel grateful for that!

It's quite rare for me to be able to nap in the day time, but once in a blue moon I can do it. Even when I do, I almost never actually fell asleep when napping, but more drift into a lower state of consciousness.

I have tried meditating before bed and that was not helpful but I can see prayer being effective if it soothes anxiety.

I have little desire to get married or even get a GF because I pretty much always get zero sleep if we share a bed. And they always take it personally that I don't want to do sleepovers. Puts a serious strain on the relationship and the whole situation is highly irritating.

If I ever got married, we would have to sleep in seperate bedrooms, non negotiable. Most women are not okay with this, but I'm sure some would accept it.
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If you notice old couples many actually sleep in different beds and some in different rooms because of sleep problems, when the sex wears off. My wife is also a very sensitive sleeper so sometimes she struggles sleeping next too me, she says I snore etc, so because I can sleep so well I try sleep on my side or face down even though I love sleeping on my back but then I snore more on my back and she has to wake me in the night to turn, she became worse after children because she was always listening up for babies crying and getting up now she is extra sensitive but Iv adapted, Iv also noticed that if I read in bed before sleep sometimes I fall asleep while reading, I hope you come right with your sleep some day, my uncle has the exact same problem as you
 
TruckDriver9 said:
Used to work night shifts and had my internal clock completely messed up - couldn't fall asleep even on days off. Taking naps helped a lot.
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Night shifts are terrible for you. I'm not sure if theyre "healthy" for natural night owls who sleep the same schedule on their off days. Good thing you got out of it.

GoodShepherd said:
If you notice old couples many actually sleep in different beds and some in different rooms because of sleep problems, when the sex wears off. My wife is also a very sensitive sleeper so sometimes she struggles sleeping next too me, she says I snore etc, so because I can sleep so well I try sleep on my side or face down even though I love sleeping on my back but then I snore more on my back and she has to wake me in the night to turn, she became worse after children because she was always listening up for babies crying and getting up now she is extra sensitive but Iv adapted, Iv also noticed that if I read in bed before sleep sometimes I fall asleep while reading, I hope you come right with your sleep some day, my uncle has the exact same problem as you
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I would get that snoring looked into, that is usually a sign of sleep apnea which causes a lot of health problems.

Funny enough when I read before bed I get lazy and "nod off" but don't actually fall asleep or stay asleep. Sleep is like a psychological game for me, only certain things get me to actually drift towards it. I have mostly solved my issues, but whenever I change my routine (such as travel) I competely unravel, almost guaranteed. Just had it happen again this weekend, went to a weedding and got 1 hr of sleep both nights, it really throws a monkey wrench into my life. This was kind of the final nail in the coffin, and I'm almost prepared to swear off travel until I can come up with remedies.

If stay home and stay consistent and disciplined I can generally sleep well.
 
Batman said:
Night shifts are terrible for you. I'm not sure if theyre "healthy" for natural night owls who sleep the same schedule on their off days. Good thing you got out of it.
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Thanks, it was like 15 years ago, now I'm in a completely different place with my life.
Back then I had a lot of trouble with falling asleep. I was going to bed in the morning, but couldn't fall asleep for hours. I was turning around the bed like a rotisserie chicken unable to doze off - nothing helped: blackout curtains, earplugs, beer. And when I was finally able to fall asleep, I would then wake up at 6pm, losing a whole day. My sleep quality was poor, and I was like a zombie hours after waking up. I would drink a lot of energy drinks back then to keep me going on the sugar/caffeine high. Eventually, I was so exhausted with the attempts to fall asleep, that I gave up on going to bed completely - it started kind of by accident, I guess, one day instead of lying down in bed, I sat in the backyard chair to catch some sunlight and I dozed off. Woke an hour later, but I was more rested, than after sleeping for half a day. So I started to do it everyday, I would get back home after work and instead of going to bed, I would sit or lie down on a couch in the living room, or go outside if the weather was nice and instead of forcing myself to sleep I would simply relax - put on some music, read a little, and eventually I would drift away in the process. I would nap for an hour, or four, and then go on with my day. If I felt tired later, I would take another brake to rest and relax - sometimes I would fall asleep, sometimes not, but either way I was more rested with those 2/3 naps a day, than before.
I think You should try this approach. Don't force Yourself to fall asleep, instead whenever You feel exhausted just take a brake. Hit the couch, maybe go outside if you have a backyard, and try to relax: read a book or do something else that you like (but don't stare at any kind of screen!), and maybe You'll be able to drift away in the process, and even if not, You will still get some rest out of it.
 
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My best sleep is when I:

-Magnesium and zinc before bed.
No caffeine 6 hours prior unless you're working out
-A meal with carbohydrates and protein 2 or 3 hours before bed
-No more than 1 alcoholic beverages
-workout that evening or brisk walk after several meals.
-cold, Dark room,
-Earbuds
-Cpap
-no TV or television at least 30 mins before bed.
 
Caffeine has a half-life of 12 hours!

If you drink a cup in the morning, you still have half a cup in you at bed. If one is having trouble sleeping, the only solution is to fast from caffeine at least 3-4 days a week to get rid of extra caffeine in the body.
 
Oh another one, I can't sleep after sex either. All the more reason to avoid it.


Samseau said:
Caffeine has a half-life of 12 hours!

If you drink a cup in the morning, you still have half a cup in you at bed. If one is having trouble sleeping, the only solution is to fast from caffeine at least 3-4 days a week to get rid of extra caffeine in the body.
Click to expand...
12 hours? I thought it was around 6-8, are you sure? I do know the pharmacokinetics of caffeine vary depending on the invidual too.

mountainaire said:
Get a job as a construction laborer. I guarantee you will sleep.
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I am fairly physically active. Even multiple 10mi+ high elevation hikes for days in a row don't help. But, I'd definitely be curious to see. After a lot of sun exposure or exercise I will be physically tired but not mentally. In fact sometimes it's as if I am too exhausted to fall asleep, it's just absurd.
 
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Shaquilleoatmeal said:
If I may ask, why does zinc help one fall asleep? I have heard magnesium helps but not much about zinc.
Click to expand...

There are some studies showing it can improve sleep quality. Here's a couple:

The Effect of Zinc Supplementation on Sleep Quality of ICU Nurses: A Double Blinded Randomized Controlled Trial


JCSteel said:
I heard a rumor that chocolate ice cream with chocolate cake and fudge before bed isn't good for sleep. In the name of science I verified the truth of this assertion last night.
😖
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Lol it's almost certainly from the dopamine spike.

Anything that raises dopamine is bad for sleep.
 
Hello. I am searching for a list of techniques which can help fight insomnia. In my case I fall asleep without problems... but can't sleep more than 3-4 hours. This has continued for 1+years now. Thank you for some help.
 
Kido Butai said:
Hello. I am searching for a list of techniques which can help fight insomnia. In my case I fall asleep without problems... but can't sleep more than 3-4 hours. This has continued for 1+years now. Thank you for some help.
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Read the bulleted points of my opening post lol

Beyond that, for me the one thing that consistently works better than anything else is keeping your home very cold, I'm talking below 65f, like 58-62. Wear warm socks to stay warm, google "socks with sleep" to see what I mean.
 
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