The Sopranos Discussion/Appreciation Thread (Renewed)

Murdock

Murdock

Catholic
Remnant
The previous forum had a thread dedicated to “The Sopranos”, a series widely agreed by many critics and members of the general audience to be one of-possibly the greatest-television series ever made thus far. It paved the way for pretty much everything that came afterward-for better or worse. It spawned many imitators who didn’t really understand what made it great and thought that having an “antihero” who did questionable things made a show. There would be later exceptions like “Breaking Bad” and even at the time there were some contemporaries on a similar scale like “Deadwood”. But apart from those and a handful of others, nothing comes close.

I have a quote from the poster who started the thread on RVF that sums it up pretty well. He went by TigerMandingo so credit where it’s due:

“The subtleties, the conversations, the atmosphere and the realistic portrayal of the mob....I couldn't take my eyes off of it.”

I’ll warn anyone who has never seen the show-especially given the focus on this forum-this is an MA rated HBO series so you can imagine what kind of content it contains. That being said, one thing it gets right is the price people eventually pay for a life of crime and horrific acts.

I felt that today was as good of a day of any being the anniversary of September 11th. It’s fitting because no other television series was better suited to capture-and did capture and lean into-the state of the world in the aftermath. The third season ended in May of 2001 and the fourth didn’t premiere until 2002. They removed the twin towers from the opening credits after S3 and from that point on you feel a vague sense of dread and unease throughout the remainder of the series. It also comes up in several of the plot lines of the series.

Also, thanks to GodfatherPartTwo for mentioning this:
GodfatherPartTwo said:
HBO just came out with a two part documentary on The Sopranos. It is very good, anybody who liked the show should be interested. Much of David Chase's life was breathed into the show's story.
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Please Share Your Thoughts Folks.
 
Watched the show at least half a dozen times. It is the greatest TV show ever, not the same as saying it's my personal favorite, it's hard to pick just one, but it is the greatest show ever.

I can remember exactly where I was at when I first watched some of the episodes. I find it to be one of the funniest shows ever. The humor reminds me of my own family. There are so many layers packed into it that it's hard to go wrong when it comes to understanding it. S6 still perplexes me. Everytime I watch it I see something new and see how consistent the whole show is.
 
A lot of great shows that came after the sopranos credit it for breaking new ground. Breaking bad , Dexter, the wire. They all borrow from the sopranos


As for my first thought?

Who’s the most evil character on the show

Phil Leotardo an overall psycho and sociopath
Johnny Sack- an overall psycho and sociopath
Tony soprano- manipulates, bullies, murders, and yea an overall psycho and sociopath
Christopher Moltisanti - beats and ultimately abandons Ade to be killed by Tony . An addict and murderer
Paulie walnuts- killed and robbed mim, the malignant cunt,
Richie Aprille- a total old school psycho , tortures Beansie for not paying him protection money while he was in prison
Ralph Cifaretto. Kills tracee after he got her pregnant , an overall psycho and sociopath
Feech Lamann, another old school psycho . Robs and beats the gardener
Janice Soprano , basically a mini Livia
Livia soprano bitter old woman. orders a hit on her own son, perhaps the worst of it is that she can pretend to be an innocent old woman

She could take the cake if the actress playing her survived and we saw more other character arc




Honestly I could make the case for any of them
 
eradicator said:
Who’s the most evil character on the show
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Tony.

Ralph was wicked, sordid, sick in the head, but overall Tony is one of the most evil characters I've ever seen. The most ironic part about Ralph is that just when you think he might actually repent,
Tony kills him.

The more you pay attention to what he reveals to Melfi, the more you realize how evil he actually is. One of the most telling; in the first episode, he tells Melfi he often has to be the sad clown, laughing on the outside, crying on the inside. He says this to garner sympathy for himself, it's a way of confirming to himself that he's the good guy, when in reality, he's the bad guy.

Midway through the show, Melfi points out that she's never seen the sad clown that he sees himself as, which is to suggest to him that his way of seeing himself is not accurate. There's also a dream sequence around this time that plays Tears of a Clown by Smokey Robinson to reinforce this theme.

Then in a few episodes before the finale, he
kills Christopher,
and can barely pretend to be sad about it to everyone around him, but is actually gleeful about it inside his own psyche, he even literally rolls on the floor and laughs about it in Vegas when he's away from everyone else.

A total liar and hypocrite through and through.

The only other character I think comes close or is worse than Tony is Tony's own dad, Johnny Boy. It's hard to make a case for him because we're told more about him than shown, but he's the the chief reason Tony turned out the way he did.
 
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I started watching the Sopranos during the worst Coof lockdown in 2021. I had to get prepared for an econometrics exam, the tutorials of which I wasn't allowed to attend. I was going insane and a friend of mine recommended watching Sopranos instead of the news.
One of the best moves of my life. I can recite some episodes word by word now.

I like that it's fundamentally a Christian/ Lapsed Catholic series. It has all the elements of the Scorsese mob movies, but really explores them.
(Proper) mob movies are always about the falldown of people who refuse to change and face their sins, because they confuse gold with things that shine.

I mostly enjoy the brutally honestly depicted relationship between Tony and AJ. It's as close to perfect as I've ever seen in a movie. The boomer dad who fell victim to his materialism and habitual moralism, turning his son into a disoriented wimp, and then hating his son for being one. Chase was really ahead of his time with that one.

I guess I'd have more to say about it if I was an American, but in a broader sense it has a lot to say about the cultural and psychological ills of White people.
 
The only problem with that logic is, all of the guys Tony killed were in this thing of ours.

Look at someone like Paulie. He killled a waiter over a dispute about a low gratuity.

And he kills an innocent old woman in Mim while robbing her .

He also beat the crap out of and extorted money from the young man selling land to barone sanitation, apparently because he had a loving mother and Paulie was jealous
 
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eradicator said:
The only problem with that logic is, all of the guys Tony killed were in this thing of ours.
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Everytime Paulie murdered someone innocent, it was either accidental (like with the waiter) or non-premeditated (like with Minn).

Tony's murders are almost always premeditated. I have no doubt he would kill an innocent civilian if he was at risk of going to prison, such as Paulie was when he got caught stealing from Minn.
 
One thing I love about this show is how it connects it's themes through the use of symbols.


In this scene, Tony recounts how his mom once threatened him with a fork.


Then in this scene, his sister comes at him with a fork after he provokes her. He even smiles at her the same way Livia smiled at him.

The point is that Janice ends up becoming Livia, just as Tony ends up becoming Johnny Boy.
 
Here’s the case for Christopher bring the most evil



That was one of my other questions about this show, Carmella knows to not talk to the police, ask for a lawyer /tell police to drop dead and say nothing. Apparently Chris never has this conversation with Ade? Even though Ade is around drug dealers, gangsters, and still gets manipulated by the FBI and thinks her only choice is to become an informant even when they have nothing on her?

Chris also kills his narcotics anonymous sponsor, who isn’t in this thing of ours

I didn’t really find it believable that Ade stays with Christopher despite his heroin addiction and whoring , maybe they enabled each other



These kills are basically mind boggling/baffling even for a heroin addict/ alcoholic to destroy the people in your life helping you , and arguably make Chrissy the most evil
 
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The parallels between Tony and Christopher are some of the most interesting elements of the show. It's almost like the show is trying to present them as the same person. Both of them dream the same song. Both of them get shot and have a near death experience where they visit hell. Both of them have the same scar on their stomach from when they got shot, almost like a mark. Both of them have a story arc where they exploit a civilian. Both of them get with the same woman. Both of them have a scene where they see their "friends" laughing at them in slow motion and realize that their friends are not really their friends (the difference is that Tony realizes that his friends are just trying to kiss up to him, not that he cares, but Chris realizes that his friends are genuinely laughing at him). Both of them suffer from addiction (Tony with gambling and Chris with drugs).

Here is Christopher's dream. The song is You by The Aquatones, a one hit wonder from a high school group in the 50's. His dream seems to present Adriana and Carmela as interchangeble.


Then Tony's dream, same song.


The song is even used towards the end of the movie, where Dickie is listening to it on the radio as he is forcing Tony out of his life.
 
eradicator said:
Edit my only real problem with the sopranos is that so many murders would get the attention of the police.
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You know, you WOULD think that, but it's awfully difficult to investigate in an environment where everybody hates the police and crime is part of the milieu. Blacks always cry about the low rate at which crimes in their community are solved, but then they tolerate illegal behavior and refuse to cooperate with policemen whenever the occasion arises.
The reason murder is generally difficult to pull off is that, if any regular guy chooses to murder another one for advantage, it tends to be fairly obvious who did it, and for which reason, but in an environment where people have a code of silence and violent crime is an accepted part of community life, it's a lot easier to get away with it. Sammy the Bull killed around 30 people, and the only reason they got him was because of BS RICO charges and playing tapes where colleagues badmouthed him. Al Capone also didn't actually get punished for his murders and violent crime, but mainly tax evasion.

Tony has the attention of the police, intensely so from season 2 onwards, as did many real life mafiosos. But, and I like this depiction of organized crime, because I think it holds true, career criminals tend to compromise the people around them and give them reasons to lie for them. That's why Tony invites everybody, mafia or otherwise, into the Bing. It's the Epstein strategy. Get people involved with you, comfortable with you, make them accomplices, and nobody will ever say a word. If the police have no body, no weapon, and no reliable witness as to the narrative of the motive, they can't arrest anybody.

There are tons of rappers today who were either involved or bystanders to murder cases, but because there are few people who could give a credible statement (and those tend to be their long time agents or producers), nothing happens. They are compromised and are aware of that. It's how the devil works. That's why the Church puts such emphasis on confession. People generally don't have a hard time telling lies to themselves and others if there is a huge material or psychological benefit. And once you get used to it, you might even do it for little benefit, which is depicted in the Donnie Brasco movie with Johnny Depp.
 
eradicator said:
Ade stays with Christopher despite his heroin addiction and whoring
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I have to contradict on that point as well, as you might be surprised what an enthralled woman is ready to put up with. Also, she's a part of the Aprile family, so she pretty much was raised into mob wife life.

There's an entire essay to be written about the psychological dynamics of mob wives in the Sopranos, but the short and sweet of it is that the Tate-proclaimed cliché about women having an obsession with alpha males isn't entirely wrong. But there are different kinds of women, and despite their issues with rational thought, women do make their own choices in terms of morality. Women who go for the big man with the bling often end up used up, drugged out and possibly dead, although usually just alone and depressed.

I went to school with a girl who fell in love with a small time criminal drug dealer, later turned pimp. He was muscular, he was aggressive, and he beat one of my pals up severely once for flirting with the girl. He also beat up the girl on several occasions. Guess what, that didn't make him seem less attractive in the eyes of most of the ladies. He actually lived in my neighborhood and later met him and overheard him tell someone about how he forced women to prostitute themselves while they were thinking he was their boyfriend. Very sick stuff, but it has existed since time immemorial.

The same way men have a weakness for mentally disturbed, sexually attractive women with a manipulative streak, women have a weakness for violent psychopaths who take what they want and also display an ability for manipulation. Manipulation is the key here, but the raw display of superficially attractive qualities is what sells the dream. Going back to Church teaching, that's why self-consciousness and discernment are so important.

Carmella is the only woman in her environment who dares to face the blatant moral contradictions of her life at several points throughout the series, but in the end, just like Tony, she chooses to go along with it. In her case less out of maliciousness and more out of a bought and paid for complacency and the sheer horror of the consequences of ending it, but an immoral and egotistical choice nonetheless.
 
eradicator said:
Ralph Kills Tracee after getting the news that he got her pregnant



“She fell”.

He got a girl pregnant and then murders her. That’s pretty bad


Edit my only real problem with the sopranos is that so many murders would get the attention of the police.
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It's very hard to say who is "the worst" among the large cast of psychopaths in The Sopranos. That said, I think the biggest theme of the show was that whereas characters like Paulie, Ritchie, and Ralph seem more or less born to be vicious sociopaths and have very little ability to comprehend the difference between wrong and right, Tony is not really like them. Tony could have chosen a different life and been a decent person, he just didn't because it seemed too hard and kind of boring, and he enjoys having nice things and hurting people, although he also knows it's wrong. So he lies to himself that he's somehow fated to follow in his father's footsteps.

One of the disturbing things about the show for me was how a lot of people seemed to think Tony was somehow "cool" or admirable or even someone to be emulated in some way. He's not, he's a deeply evil and miserable man and the show does a great job of showing how miserable the life he chooses makes him. I guess it just doesn't beat you over the head with this point so although it was pretty obvious to me, a lot of people seemed to miss it.
 
Raskolnikov said:
I have to contradict on that point as well, as you might be surprised what an enthralled woman is ready to put up with. Also, she's a part of the Aprile family, so she pretty much was raised into mob wife life.

There's an entire essay to be written about the psychological dynamics of mob wives in the Sopranos, but the short and sweet of it is that the Tate-proclaimed cliché about women having an obsession with alpha males isn't entirely wrong. But there are different kinds of women, and despite their issues with rational thought, women do make their own choices in terms of morality. Women who go for the big man with the bling often end up used up, drugged out and possibly dead, although usually just alone and depressed.

I went to school with a girl who fell in love with a small time criminal drug dealer, later turned pimp. He was muscular, he was aggressive, and he beat one of my pals up severely once for flirting with the girl. He also beat up the girl on several occasions. Guess what, that didn't make him seem less attractive in the eyes of most of the ladies. He actually lived in my neighborhood and later met him and overheard him tell someone about how he forced women to prostitute themselves while they were thinking he was their boyfriend. Very sick stuff, but it has existed since time immemorial.

The same way men have a weakness for mentally disturbed, sexually attractive women with a manipulative streak, women have a weakness for violent psychopaths who take what they want and also display an ability for manipulation. Manipulation is the key here, but the raw display of superficially attractive qualities is what sells the dream. Going back to Church teaching, that's why self-consciousness and discernment are so important.

Carmella is the only woman in her environment who dares to face the blatant moral contradictions of her life at several points throughout the series, but in the end, just like Tony, she chooses to go along with it. In her case less out of maliciousness and more out of a bought and paid for complacency and the sheer horror of the consequences of ending it, but an immoral and egotistical choice nonetheless.
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Carmella tried to end it. As I recall Tony got advice from the lawyer in whitecaps to meet with all of the top divorce attorneys in north jersey so none could take Carm because if a conflict of interest.

One of the best scenes in the show, I think



Carmella sees a shrink who doesn’t pull any punches and gives some good advice

But I mean she could have gone to New York? To find a lawyer?

As for Ade, Chris ultimately fed her to Tony to be killed. She didn’t ever have any information to give the feds but didn’t matter .

I think Chris ultimately regretted doing this as she was the love of his life . But he didn’t want to leave the life after seeing a family at a gas station where the husband seemed, defeated?



I guess this is ultimately why Chris gets Ade killed? Goes back to Tony and keeps using heroin and gets his ending a year later?

And ultimately you’re right about Ade being drawn to Chris like a moth to a flame . He beat the shit out of her , but she figured she loved him and as you say was an Aprile and knew the drill

Ade is arguably the most tragic story in the sopranos
 
I've watched the series probably 10 times over by now. I appreciate it most as a comedy rather than a drama series. The jokes, malapropisms and whatnot are my favorite.

I started watching "The Wire" for the first time, finally. It's got the typical edgy (for the time) degeneracy shoehorned in, as it was one of HBO's first big series, but the quality of the writing and the plot is on par with the Sopranos.
 
Despite showing how corrupt all these people are, and outright immoral and evil, the show, if taken for anything other than a fictional comedy, promotes a very anti-Christian morality.

Of course david chase would make the wise jew psychiatrist give the best advice, and have him not take any money, that is the biggest inversion of the truth on this show of seemingly endless jewish point-of-views. Michael Franzese (who is not someone to look up to, even though he is a Christian) said that the idea of a mob boss going to a psychiatrist would sign his own death warrant. He also said a lot of the writing isn't accurate for some of the characters like the druggie nephew.

The show gave some rare glimpses to Catholic Italian families outside the mob, like the psychiatrists broken family, who looked down on "those type of Italians".

The show makes the Catholic priest look like a weak-willed struggling sinner, having dinner at the Sopranos house and being tempted by the wife. I remember Tony mocking him in an earlier episode "are you going to eat all my food father?" or something like that. They used the same actor who was used for the Rambo movie who played a preacher taking Christian missionaries into Burma who acted like a total liberal White loser.

They had him giving the Eucharist in the Sopranos house to the wife in her pajamas in some kind of bizarre temptation story. In typical jew fashion they just can't leave the Sacraments alone. This always comes out no matter what in a jew production. For as bad as Godfather Part III was there was at least a scene of Michael crying to a Bishop about murdering his brother and his internal desire for some redemption. There was none of that with these "mobsters," though they could have written it in.
 
I thought the portrayal of the priest and everything else related to that was spot on. The idea that you can slip a wafer, and believe that it infuses grace into you, despite continuing to lead an unfaithful, unrepentant life is exactly the kind of religion that Tony and Carmela Soprano would take refuge in.

Tony said it best to the Evangelical Preacher: "I already got all this covered with my priest."
 
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