The rapture

[Christos_NIKA]

I see we dont have a thread here yet about the rapture, feel free to chime in. I know in the Orthodox church we dont believe in the rapture and its quite a modern doctrine that started in America by protestants, if someone could refresh my memory I think it was the Jewish guy Mr Scoefield with his Bible commentary? I grew up protestant so we were taught the rapture, the ONLY protestant I ever heard of that didnt believe in the rapture was Kobus Van Rensburg and I attended his Church for some time many many years ago.

I was raised Lutheran and never heard of this until I was in my 20s and attended a "Bible Church" (whatever that is). None of the original Protestant branches taught about this "rapture". It came about in the mid-to-late 1800s through John Darby and propagated through the jewish-funded pro Zionist Scofield Study Bible throughout the 1900s, but mainly in the so-called radical reformed Protestant branches. The Orthodox Church views it as heresy and that it should be avoided. Even at a basic level one must recognize that believing in a rapture removes all sense of urgency to repent and bring others to Christ, in the Christian faith. Very often, the same people who believe in the "rapture" also believe in "once saved, always saved" (another heresy). So you have a double-whammy: "I do my statement of faith and never can lose it, and I just wait to be taken outta here, and everyone else can just deal with the mess."

 

[GoodShepherd]

I was raised Lutheran and never heard of this until I was in my 20s and attended a "Bible Church" (whatever that it). None of the original Protestant branches taught about this "rapture". It came about in the mid-to-late 1800s through John Darby and propagated through the jewish-funded pro Zionist Scofield Study Bible throughout the 1900s, but mainly in the so-called radical reformed Protestant branches. The Orthodox Church views it as heresy and it should be avoided.

Thanks for clearing this up I havent watched Fr Josiah Trenhams take on the rapture I will have a look, its crazy how so much of the protestant world believed the rapture even here in South Africa the rapture is a big doctrine, I think the TV evangelists from America influenced a great audience

 

[GoodShepherd]

I was raised Lutheran and never heard of this until I was in my 20s and attended a "Bible Church" (whatever that is). None of the original Protestant branches taught about this "rapture". It came about in the mid-to-late 1800s through John Darby and propagated through the jewish-funded pro Zionist Scofield Study Bible throughout the 1900s, but mainly in the so-called radical reformed Protestant branches. The Orthodox Church views it as heresy and that it should be avoided. Even at a basic level one must recognize that believing in a rapture removes all sense of urgency to repent and bring others to Christ, in the Christian faith. Very often, the same people who believe in the "rapture" also believe in "once saved, always saved" (another heresy). So you have a double-whammy: "I do my statement of faith and never can lose it, and I just wait to be taken outta here, and everyone else can just deal with the mess."

Well explained, no rapture just the second coming of Christ at the end of the age

 

[Thomas More]

Well explained, no rapture just the second coming of Christ at the end of the age

At the second coming of Christ at the end of the age, will we be caught up to meet him in the air? The catching up in the air part is what I would call the rapture. Will it be like Jesus described in Matt 24:40, one shall be taken, and the other left?

How do the Orthodox and other non rapture believing churches answer this?

I have seen some previous posts on this topic, but they either post a long video, or they change topics. I'd like to see a brief and direct asnwer such "those verses are allegorical, not literal", or whatever the non-rapture position is.

 

[Aloha]

I'm not convinced of it one way or the other. I need to look into the arguments for both for and against. If you held a gun to my head, I would lean in favor of it.

The Rapture only makes sense in a premillenial schema. So postmillenialists and amillenialists are not going to teach it.

@italianstallion9
I'm becoming more skeptical of the claims that pin it all on the Schofield Bible. There could be something to it, but if you read the earliest extra-Biblical material, such as the ending of the Didache, the section where it speaks on eschatology sounds far more premillenialist than anything else.

The Didache, Chapter 16:

Pre-millennial eschatology was not uncommon in the early church, but Pre-millennialism is not necessarily Pre-millennial dispensationalism as taught by Darby and popularized in the Schofield Reference Bible. No early church father or thinker ever espoused the current view with it's focus on the modern state of Israel.

 

[Thomas More]

Pre-millennial eschatology was not uncommon in the early church, but Pre-millennialism is not necessarily Pre-millennial dispensationalism as taught by Darby and popularized in the Schofield Reference Bible. No early church father or thinker ever espoused the current view with it's focus on the modern state of Israel.

I agree with the last part that Scofield was wrong on some issues. Do we throw it all out then? What about the pre-millenialism from the early church? Is this true even if Scofield was wrong on some issues?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

No early church father or thinker ever espoused the current view with it's focus on the modern state of Israel.

Be that as it may, it is true from Paul's letters and from passages of the Old Testament that God intends to save the Jews, by causing them to repent and turn to Jesus Christ. The doctrine is Biblical.

The application of that Biblical doctrine to the State of Israel is far more questionable, but the Biblical doctrine itself should not be overthrown due to bad applications of it.

 

[Christos_NIKA]

God intends to save the Jews, by causing them to repent and turn to Jesus Christ.

God did save Israel/Hebrews through Christ's death and resurrection. Christ was the fulfilment of the OT covenant with Abraham. Those Hebrews who believed in Jesus Christ will be saved. That is how Israel became Christ's bride, the Church. Those who call themselves "jews" today are not Israel of the OT, and not spiritual Israel today, unless they repent and follow Christ. Christ told us at the Last Supper, "this is a NEW COVENANT in my blood". The word New Testament literally means "new covenant" (covenant=testament), as in "last will and testament". In many languages, the word for New Testament literally means "new covenant". This seems to be mainly unclear to English speakers. St. Paul told us that if we think we are somehow still saved by our genetics or the OT law, then Christ's sacrifice is worthless and we are still dead in our sins.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

St. Paul told us that if we think we are somehow still saved by our genetics or the OT law, then Christ's sacrifice is worthless and we are still dead in our sins.

This isn't even what I'm arguing. I already affirm that the only way to be saved is by faith in Jesus Christ, to be in Him as a member of the New Covenant. I'm not a dispensationalist.

I'm not arguing that Jews get saved anyway because they are Jews, or that anyone gets saved outside of believing in Jesus Christ. I'm merely echoing what Paul says:

Romans 11:12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” 27 “AND THIS IS MY COVENANT [New Covenant] WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[GoodShepherd]

At the second coming of Christ at the end of the age, will we be caught up to meet him in the air? The catching up in the air part is what I would call the rapture. Will it be like Jesus described in Matt 24:40, one shall be taken, and the other left?

How do the Orthodox and other non rapture believing churches answer this?

I have seen some previous posts on this topic, but they either post a long video, or they change topics. I'd like to see a brief and direct asnwer such "those verses are allegorical, not literal", or whatever the non-rapture position is.

The important thing is that its at the end of it all, yes sounds like we gonna meet the Lord in the air at the glorious second coming and those in the grave come out, Im not sure about the Orthodox stance on when one is taken and the other left but if they only have a first and second coming of Christ and nothing inbetween then Im just assuming here that those not taken could be the people who are alive at the time of the second coming who are against the church? The ones who took the mark? Maybe there is a more competant Orthodox guy on the forum who can answer that for you

 

[Iacobus]

At the second coming of Christ at the end of the age, will we be caught up to meet him in the air? The catching up in the air part is what I would call the rapture. Will it be like Jesus described in Matt 24:40, one shall be taken, and the other left?

How do the Orthodox and other non rapture believing churches answer this?

I have seen some previous posts on this topic, but they either post a long video, or they change topics. I'd like to see a brief and direct asnwer such "those verses are allegorical, not literal", or whatever the non-rapture position is.

OSB interpretation of "one shall be taken and the other left":

The second coming of Christ will entail a sudden revelation of judgment. One will be taken and the other left for eternal condemnation. This separation of the saints from the wicked will occur at the coming of the Son of Man, and not, as some teach today, at a certain time before His second coming.

Looking for more info but this is what I have handy. So it certainly will be like Christ described/prophesied. From what I can tell other users have already zoned in on what seems to be the key difference, Orthodox do not believe that the Church will be spared from the earthly tribulation, or that the condemned alone will face an earthly tribulation before the end of the age.

So I believe we all agree on a 'rapture' in that there will be a miraculous event where the judgment is revealed and the saints are separated from the wicked. The point of disagreement is on whether this will occur simultaneously with the second coming & the end of the age, or whether it is a separate event that will precede it.

 

[Christos_NIKA]

The important thing is that its at the end of it all, yes sounds like we gonna meet the Lord in the air at the glorious second coming and those in the grave come out, Im not sure about the Orthodox stance on when one is taken and the other left but if they only have a first and second coming of Christ and nothing inbetween then Im just assuming here that those not taken could be the people who are alive at the time of the second coming who are against the church? The ones who took the mark? Maybe there is a more competant Orthodox guy on the forum who can answer that for you

The Saints had some commentaries on Matthew 24:40. This one from St. Hilary of Poitiers (AD 368) helps make it clearer.

"Christ shows that a judgment is coming, since between two people in a field, one is taken up and one left behind. Between two grinding at the mill, one is chosen and one rejected. Between two lying in bed, one departs and one remains. This teaching means that the separation of the faithful from the unfaithful will consist in one being accepted and the other abandoned. For, like the prophet says, when the wrath of God rises, the saints will be hidden in God’s chambers but the faithless will be left exposed to celestial fire. The two in the field therefore represent the faithful and the unfaithful, both of whom will be surprised by the day of the Lord in the midst of the world, in the course of their life’s work. They will be separated, one taken and the other left. It will be the same for the two grinding at the mill, which represents the work of the law. For only some of the Jews, like Elijah, believed through the apostles that they must be justified by faith. One group will be taken up through the faith that produces good works, and the other group will be abandoned in the fruitless works of the law, grinding in vain at a mill that will never produce heavenly food."

It is clear to me that it is referring to the fact that no one knows the heart of another, and some will be saved, while others not, despite outward appearances. As for the dead rising at the Second Coming, yes the Orthodox teach that the graves will open and the dead will rise, and ascend with those who at that time have not yet met physical death. I am not an Orthodox theologian, and I doubt there is one on this forum.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

From what I can tell other users have already zoned in on what seems to be the key difference, Orthodox do not believe that the Church will be spared from the earthly tribulation, or that the condemned alone will face an earthly tribulation before the end of the age.

So I believe we all agree on a 'rapture' in that there will be a miraculous event where the judgment is revealed and the saints are separated from the wicked. The point of disagreement is on whether this will occur simultaneously with the second coming & the end of the age, or whether it is a separate event that will precede it.

It sounds to me like you're saying that you believe in a post-tribulation Rapture, but I already know that if you ask your priest if he believes in a post-tribulation Rapture, he will say that there is no Rapture at all. This is what causes the lack of clarity and confusion in the other side.

 

[Iacobus]

It sounds to me like you're saying that you believe in a post-tribulation Rapture, but I already know that if you ask your priest if he believes in a post-tribulation Rapture, he will say that there is no Rapture at all. This is what causes the lack of clarity and confusion in the other side.

It's a word-concept thing. As played out earlier in the topic, in common parlance, "Rapture = [taking of the righteous pre-tribulation/second coming]", so then we would say we don't believe in the Rapture. Then folks might say "So you don't believe [Bible verses concerning people being taken]"? Which could also be called the Rapture but is not synonymous with the common understanding of the term. I believe this may be the same point you are making.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

It's a word-concept thing. As played out earlier in the topic, in common parlance, "Rapture = [taking of the righteous pre-tribulation/second coming]", so then we would say we don't believe in the Rapture. Then folks might say "So you don't believe [Bible verses concerning people being taken]"? Which could also be called the Rapture but is not synonymous with the common understanding of the term. I believe this may be the same point you are making.

This is where the debate gets trickier. Between post-trib and pre-trib, even mid-trib, placing when the Rapture occurs is more difficult.

 

[Thomas More]

OSB interpretation of "one shall be taken and the other left":



Looking for more info but this is what I have handy. So it certainly will be like Christ described/prophesied. From what I can tell other users have already zoned in on what seems to be the key difference, Orthodox do not believe that the Church will be spared from the earthly tribulation, or that the condemned alone will face an earthly tribulation before the end of the age.

So I believe we all agree on a 'rapture' in that there will be a miraculous event where the judgment is revealed and the saints are separated from the wicked. The point of disagreement is on whether this will occur simultaneously with the second coming & the end of the age, or whether it is a separate event that will precede it.

This makes sense. If I am understanding correctly, the Orthodox believe in the tribulation including a brief reign by the antiChrist, which is brought to an end by the return of Christ, including a post trib rapture.

I guess the next question is whether Orthodox believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth, followed by Satan being released for a little season, followed by the Great White Throne judgment, and finally the eternal Kingdom of God.

Or, do the White Throne judgment and the Eternal Kingdom immediately follow the second coming?

 

[Christos_NIKA]

This makes sense. If I am understanding correctly, the Orthodox believe in the tribulation including a brief reign by the antiChrist, which is brought to an end by the return of Christ, including a post trib rapture.

I guess the next question is whether Orthodox believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth, followed by Satan being released for a little season, followed by the Great White Throne judgment, and finally the eternal Kingdom of God.

Or, do the White Throne judgment and the Eternal Kingdom immediately follow the second coming?

As Fr. Josiah mentioned in his video, no the Orthodox do not believe in a 1000 year reign. It is also rejected through the Nicene Creed. The Orthodox believe we are in the "1000 year" period now...the Gospel Age, wherein Satan is bound until the end, when he is released, all hell breaks loose, the Christians suffer enormously, and then Christ comes again (second coming...after his incarnation 2000 years ago). That's it.

 

[Iacobus]

This makes sense. If I am understanding correctly, the Orthodox believe in the tribulation including a brief reign by the antiChrist, which is brought to an end by the return of Christ, including a post trib rapture.

I guess the next question is whether Orthodox believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth, followed by Satan being released for a little season, followed by the Great White Throne judgment, and finally the eternal Kingdom of God.

Or, do the White Throne judgment and the Eternal Kingdom immediately follow the second coming?

OSB Revelation 20:2-10 commentary on the thousand years, emphasis in original:

Though most did not, a few early Fathers and writers believed in a literal thousand year binding of Satan and reign of Christ and the saints on earth. The Church, however, authoritatively rejected this teaching (called chiliasm) at the Second Ecumenical Council. In apocalyptic literature, numbers have symbolic significance. "Thousand" is of ten used in the Scriptures to denote a long period of time, a great quantity, completion, perfection, thoroughness (Job 9:3; 2Pt 3:8). Here, a thousand years is interpreted as the Church age, when Jesus reigns on earth in those who believe. It is that era between the first and second comings of Christ, also called the "last times," when Satan's effectiveness at deceit is restricted through the Cross and Resurrection of Christ, and the saints share in Christ's earthly reign through the Church. For these persecuted Christians threatened by martyrdom, this is a consoling hope.

The devil is thrown into the pit, which is shut and sealed for a thousand years - meaning a long period of time - to allow the Church to be planted, to grow and to overcome, even in times of persecution and trial. The word "millennium" is synonymous with "thousand years" and carries with it no connotations of peace and prosperity. The Bible teaches that Satan was bound at the completion of Christ's saving work (Mt 12:28-20; Lk 10:17-18; Jn 12:31-32; Col 2:15). He is not totally inactive (Acts 5:3; 1Co 5:5, Eph 6:11), but he cannot deceive the nations by keeping the gospel from them. At the close of the millennium or Church age, Satan will be released for a little while.

 

[Thomas More]

Sounds like the Orthodox are post trib rapture amillennialist. I can see how a lay person wouldn't know that, but I'm surprised that even priests don't know this, to the point of denying the rapture. I know they are denying the pre-trib rapture, but it's surprising to be unable to distinguish the pre-trib timing from the essential truth of the rapture itself, to the point of saying there is no rapture.

 

[Christos_NIKA]

Sounds like the Orthodox are post trib rapture amillennialist. I can see how a lay person wouldn't know that, but I'm surprised that even priests don't know this, to the point of denying the rapture. I know they are denying the pre-trib rapture, but it's surprising to be unable to distinguish the pre-trib timing from the essential truth of the rapture itself, to the point of saying there is no rapture.

The term "rapture" only came about in the last 150 years or so, far beyond the time when Orthodox theology was codified in the Ecumenical Councils, the last of which was in the 8th century. The Orthodox Church doesn't make up it up as it goes along, and does not have "progressive theology", as you might find in Roman Catholicism. It holds fast to the faith imparted to it by the Apostles and the Saints once, for all time. What you call "post trib amillennial rapture" is a concept no Orthodox would ever have heard of, because it's not in our history, period. Also, at the end of the age, when all are gathered together for the final judgement and sent by Christ to their eternal reward or damnation...is for us NOT a "rapture". It is simply the final judgement. Whether Christ physically gathers us together on Earth or in the sky or in some other dimension...that is not clear...and we don't worry about it or think about it. If you're more interested in what the Orthodox Church teaches in this vein, perhaps this book might interest you:

Fr. Seraphim Rose The Soul After Death 2009 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The spiritual realm after death defies observation, yet mankind persists in its desire to peer beyond this threshold — a threshold through which we all must...

archive.org