The China Thread

That is exactly how communism works because there aren’t true price signals driving the process so you get this seemingly contradictory outcome.

So you can have millions of empty apartments built that are unaffordable (luxury) for the majority of Chinese (built as a store of value for wealthy speculators during the Chinese property boom which is now dead) or built in ghost cities where there are no jobs so nobody wants to live there meanwhile there are a huge percentage of people who cannot afford to buy a property.

China didn’t build affordable property in locations where people actually want to live. The properties were either in poor locations or too unaffordable for the Chinese population to buy. A classic misallocation of capital that occurs in a communist system.

Not true, for example, there has been a housing glut in most big Chinese cities recently, Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou etc, and rents in most big cities like Wuhan, Chongqing, Chengdu etc are pretty low, which means that the supply of new housing there is robust.





It is the housing market in your cities (Sydney, Melbourne) and most western cities like SF, LA, Vancouver, Toronto, Paris, London etc that is completely out of whack, due to lack of recent construction because of Boomer NIMBYism, red tape and artificially high construction costs.
 
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That city in Sichuan, Anju, doesn't look like a ghost town. There is a new industrial park with for instance the large auto plant pictured below, and several privately operated hotels there, which obviously would not exist if this was some kind of a ghost town...
I'll have to do a better job of writing because I failed to make it clear that those three photos of the government center in a town near Guangzhou, where I never saw any activity, was evidence of corruption in my opinion, and not a ghost town. I lived a few blocks from these buildings, which also had some basketball courts nearby and the whole place was at the end of the main street. I saw them almost every day for about two months and never once saw a person going in or out.

Based on everything I heard and learned over the years of how things worked in China, I concluded that the county govt gave this small town some money, so they built these in order to pretend the funds had been well spent.

Considering there was nothing going on inside, I always assumed they were just barren money pits. I mean maybe they were constructing thorium-salt reactors or something, so it was just all top secret, but I think the obvious conclusion is more likely, lol. I visited new govt buildings in the county seat and they looked like those on the outside (everything looks the same in China), but there were endless streams of people going in and out, which is normal.

Around those small town govt buildings there were small houses, mostly 2-storey without rooves, that are similar to the photo I found online from Sichuan, however the real "houses" contributing to the 90% ownership rate were actually worse. I concluded the reason for there being so many unfinished and unlivable houses after 10 years close to those buildings was that they were used to claim compensation from the construction projects.

I simply never took pictures of the actual unfinished homes because they were so ugly it would have broken my camera, lol. That's why I grabbed one off the net, which was not perfectly clear from my last post.
 
Not true, for example, there has been a housing glut in most big Chinese cities recently, Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou etc, and rents in most big cities like Wuhan, Chongqing, Chengdu etc are pretty low, which means that the supply of new housing there is robust.
I haven't been looking closely at housing costs in China for seven years. There are temporary rises and falls. If new housing prices are down a little bit, that's down from a long-term upward trend that existed all the years I lived there. However, it's not the same as to say prices are actually low, implying they are low in comparison to one's salary & purchasing power. My experience was that Chinese like to spend about 1/4 of their gross income on housing compared to Americans for whom it was around 1/3.

Can you actually make the case that the Chinese housing and rental prices are low? Or are they just lower than last year?



This short video has no details, like how many square meters, how old the building is, what city he's in, and how far out he is from the city center.

$160 USD/month is about 1000 RMB, which was what I might have paid in the outskirts of Guangzhou in 2011 for something that size, I'm guessing 30 square meters. If your job is not too far from your apartment and your life works living on the edges of the city, then this might be for you. If you have to spend a couple of hours a day on packed subway trains, you won't make it.

That looks like a reasonably nice Chinese apartment. It's small, but livable for one person who doesn't want to entertain. Notice the burglar bars everywhere, so it could be Guangzhou or really anywhere in Guangdong.

The view looks nice from the window and I lived in apartment complexes like that in Guangzhou, but when you walk outside you'll find many problems. If the pool is swimmable, and often they're not, it's expensive, like 25 RMB per time and the yearly plan is not cheap either.

It would be exceptionally rare if the landscaping in the common area was arranged in a way so that you could enjoy being there. I never saw an example of that (all my time was in Guangzhou and Shenzhen), whereas every place I or friends lived had common areas that were literally repulsive and you would never do anything but walk through them as quickly as possible in order to get inside your apartment and away from the other people, noise, pollution and smell.

Anecdotal, but one of my Chinese friends moved from Guangzhou to Beijing around 2010 in order to go to graduate school and he had to take a really shitty shared apartment, then one day it caught fire and he was burned to death while showering. The kinds of places where most working-class Chinese rent are not in any of these "Isn't China great?" promotional type videos that foreigners put on youtube, who easily earn 3-5x what a local degreed professional makes while working 50% of their hours, or less.

A little more than half of the apartments I lived in flooded because of bad pipes and that problem was common to everyone I knew, as well as other problems. Chinese doors always have problems and I knew a few foreigners who got locked inside their apartments, in the bathroom or bedroom because the door handles failed. A buddy was locked inside his bedroom and his phone was in the living room, so after hours of waiting, he had to spider man into the bathroom and then call for help.

When Chinese people buy an apartment/condo, they almost always gut the entire place because they don't trust the materials used in the previous decoration, such as cabinets, wall facades, paint, etc., which were likely extremely toxic and/or covered in cooking oil residue, so they redo it all.

One of the main sources of noise living in a Chinese house/apartment/condo is the continual demolition of apartments around you being redecorated. Jackhammers go almost non-stop from 6AM - midnight somewhere close enough in your building to be disturbing for several weeks, then pause for a week or two, and then return; the pattern is then repeated until you move. It's one of the perennial complaints of foreigners, who find it maddening because it's impossible to get used to the noise however, Chinese are inured to many of these sensory phenomenon.

If there are no jackhammers, unless you're more than 20 stories up, which was the only time I escaped this problem, Chinese people walking through the courtyard will make enough noise to disturb or wake you at all hours if your windows are open. You might not think two men walking together nine floors down at 3 AM would need to speak to each other at 110 dB, and you would be wrong.



Nice looking apartment near the lake. 3000 RMB for that size and location is much cheaper than what I would have paid in Guangzhou, which doesn't have a central lake, but for a desirable location it would have been at least twice that. Not sure how new her building is and her amenities, but I could have paid 6000-8000 RMB/month for a newer place that size in Guanghzou in 2018 in the best parts of town.

Now for the tough love. She said the area where she lives around the lake is "clean and quiet." Forgive me, but she is not speaking the truth and I can guess the reason: she's pregnant and wants to see the cup half full, which is understandable.

The fact is that there is nowhere in mainland China with apartment complexes that is clean and quiet. It does not exist. China is extremely dirty from the pollution and noisy from the construction, and also from the Chinese people themselves, who are dirty and noisy. She is coping hard.
 
I'll have to do a better job of writing because I failed to make it clear that those three photos of the government center in a town near Guangzhou, where I never saw any activity, was evidence of corruption in my opinion, and not a ghost town. I lived a few blocks from these buildings, which also had some basketball courts nearby and the whole place was at the end of the main street. I saw them almost every day for about two months and never once saw a person going in or out.

Based on everything I heard and learned over the years of how things worked in China, I concluded that the county govt gave this small town some money, so they built these in order to pretend the funds had been well spent.

Considering there was nothing going on inside, I always assumed they were just barren money pits. I mean maybe they were constructing thorium-salt reactors or something, so it was just all top secret, but I think the obvious conclusion is more likely, lol. I visited new govt buildings in the county seat and they looked like those on the outside (everything looks the same in China), but there were endless streams of people going in and out, which is normal.

The picture of the administrative building you have posted and claimed was abandoned has many open windows, which indicates that it is occupied. Other pictures of the same buildings shows cars pulling up or parked in front of the building and half of the windows open in a random pattern.

Fg_government_building.JPG



Around those small town govt buildings there were small houses, mostly 2-storey without rooves, that are similar to the photo I found online from Sichuan, however the real "houses" contributing to the 90% ownership rate were actually worse. I concluded the reason for there being so many unfinished and unlivable houses after 10 years close to those buildings was that they were used to claim compensation from the construction projects.

I simply never took pictures of the actual unfinished homes because they were so ugly it would have broken my camera, lol. That's why I grabbed one off the net, which was not perfectly clear from my last post.

I have next to zero experience and familiarity with rural China having stayed mainly in the cities there other than in Hong Kong and Taiwan where I did tour the local countryside, but from the videos I have seen of expats visiting their local inlaws homesteads in the country, people there tend to live in tribal, multigenerational family dwelling settings, with younger people building their own homes nearby. Those tend to be projects done over years or even decades in anticipation of these rural people returning from the city to retire there.
 
I haven't been looking closely at housing costs in China for seven years. There are temporary rises and falls. If new housing prices are down a little bit, that's down from a long-term upward trend that existed all the years I lived there. However, it's not the same as to say prices are actually low, implying they are low in comparison to one's salary & purchasing power. My experience was that Chinese like to spend about 1/4 of their gross income on housing compared to Americans for whom it was around 1/3.

Can you actually make the case that the Chinese housing and rental prices are low? Or are they just lower than last year?

This short video has no details, like how many square meters, how old the building is, what city he's in, and how far out he is from the city center.

$160 USD/month is about 1000 RMB, which was what I might have paid in the outskirts of Guangzhou in 2011 for something that size, I'm guessing 30 square meters. If your job is not too far from your apartment and your life works living on the edges of the city, then this might be for you. If you have to spend a couple of hours a day on packed subway trains, you won't make it.

That looks like a reasonably nice Chinese apartment. It's small, but livable for one person who doesn't want to entertain. Notice the burglar bars everywhere, so it could be Guangzhou or really anywhere in Guangdong.

The view looks nice from the window and I lived in apartment complexes like that in Guangzhou, but when you walk outside you'll find many problems. If the pool is swimmable, and often they're not, it's expensive, like 25 RMB per time and the yearly plan is not cheap either.

It would be exceptionally rare if the landscaping in the common area was arranged in a way so that you could enjoy being there. I never saw an example of that (all my time was in Guangzhou and Shenzhen), whereas every place I or friends lived had common areas that were literally repulsive and you would never do anything but walk through them as quickly as possible in order to get inside your apartment and away from the other people, noise, pollution and smell.

Anecdotal, but one of my Chinese friends moved from Guangzhou to Beijing around 2010 in order to go to graduate school and he had to take a really shitty shared apartment, then one day it caught fire and he was burned to death while showering. The kinds of places where most working-class Chinese rent are not in any of these "Isn't China great?" promotional type videos that foreigners put on youtube, who easily earn 3-5x what a local degreed professional makes while working 50% of their hours, or less.

A little more than half of the apartments I lived in flooded because of bad pipes and that problem was common to everyone I knew, as well as other problems. Chinese doors always have problems and I knew a few foreigners who got locked inside their apartments, in the bathroom or bedroom because the door handles failed. A buddy was locked inside his bedroom and his phone was in the living room, so after hours of waiting, he had to spider man into the bathroom and then call for help.

When Chinese people buy an apartment/condo, they almost always gut the entire place because they don't trust the materials used in the previous decoration, such as cabinets, wall facades, paint, etc., which were likely extremely toxic and/or covered in cooking oil residue, so they redo it all.

One of the main sources of noise living in a Chinese house/apartment/condo is the continual demolition of apartments around you being redecorated. Jackhammers go almost non-stop from 6AM - midnight somewhere close enough in your building to be disturbing for several weeks, then pause for a week or two, and then return; the pattern is then repeated until you move. It's one of the perennial complaints of foreigners, who find it maddening because it's impossible to get used to the noise however, Chinese are inured to many of these sensory phenomenon.

If there are no jackhammers, unless you're more than 20 stories up, which was the only time I escaped this problem, Chinese people walking through the courtyard will make enough noise to disturb or wake you at all hours if your windows are open. You might not think two men walking together nine floors down at 3 AM would need to speak to each other at 110 dB, and you would be wrong.
Nice looking apartment near the lake. 3000 RMB for that size and location is much cheaper than what I would have paid in Guangzhou, which doesn't have a central lake, but for a desirable location it would have been at least twice that. Not sure how new her building is and her amenities, but I could have paid 6000-8000 RMB/month for a newer place that size in Guanghzou in 2018 in the best parts of town.

Now for the tough love. She said the area where she lives around the lake is "clean and quiet." Forgive me, but she is not speaking the truth and I can guess the reason: she's pregnant and wants to see the cup half full, which is understandable.

The fact is that there is nowhere in mainland China with apartment complexes that is clean and quiet. It does not exist. China is extremely dirty from the pollution and noisy from the construction, and also from the Chinese people themselves, who are dirty and noisy. She is coping hard.

She is a wholesome Christian Midwestern young woman, married to a Christian Chinese Malaysian guy and they are expats in Wuhan, She does write about the quirks and downsides of living in China. along with the positives, and is far more trustworthy and honest than you seem to be here, as you clearly have an anti-Chinese agenda. You have had a tortuous personal experience there, which you described in some detail earlier in this thread, and that clearly clouds your perspective.

The problem with your takes is that they are too uniformly negative and lack nuance, like how you claimed that nearly all the food in China is terrible and not cheap, which is a pretty ridiculous statement for anyone who has visited China, or that apartment complexes that are clean and quiet don't even exist anywhere in China, that also is a highly dubious statement.

There is also a lot less noise and pollution in Chinese cities due to the majority of cars and the great majority of mopeds being electric. All the bus and taxi fleets are electric, resulting in much cleaner and quieter cities. That however is a very recent phenomenon which you did not experience in person if you haven't been there since 2018. If you are complaining about noise from 2 Chinese guys talking at night, try living in Europe with 2-stroke mopeds and souped up motorcycles buzzing around at all times of the night.
 
The picture of the administrative building you have posted and claimed was abandoned has many open windows, which indicates that it is occupied.

Fg_government_building.JPG
I did not claim it was abandoned or that it was a ghost town as you misstated in your previous post. I never saw anyone coming or going inside the buildings and the doors were always locked.

If you are complaining about noise from 2 Chinese guys talking at night, try living in Europe with 2-stroke mopeds and souped up motorcycles buzzing around at all times of the night.

First of all, two Cantonese men talking can drown out a jet engine. Secondly, I lived in Guangzhou within a large university and Chinese uni's are small towns unto themselves, and some of the quietest places in the city. However, new high rises were being put up inside the campus and the construction was 24/7 - 365. It never stopped, night or day, rain or shine, piles pounding, jackhammers jacking.

I took an assignment in this small town and on the main street where I lived, the one leading to the govt buildings, the taxis would drive up and down honking their horns all night. Every night, every single green VW Passat taxi driving up and down the main street: Honk- honk. Honk-honk-honk. Honk-honk-honk-honk. At random moments and for no apparent reason. I barely slept for weeks.

In Peter Hessler's River Town he wrote about the endlessly honking taxis and how all the drivers had installed horn buttons on top of the VW gear shift knobs in order to make tooting them easier. When his father came to visit, he asked Peter why, but there was no why 没有 什么.

1762758657701.png

I finally figured out why and it has to do with the liability for driving in China if you hit a pedestrian. China hadn't yet figured out collision insurance, which led to drivers backing up and running over until death those pedestrians or cyclists they'd accidentally struck, even if the injuries were minor, because there were no limits on liability for injury, but there were for deaths, so it was much better to kill than to injure.



The taxi drivers constantly honked after dark in order to provide a legal defense for themselves if an unattentive pedestrian wandered blindly into the road, which was quite common for Chinese pedestrians, sober or not.

There is also a lot less noise and pollution in Chinese cities due to the majority of cars and the great majority of mopeds being electric. All the bus and taxi fleets are electric, resulting in much cleaner and quieter cities.
You sound just like a propaganda minister. Every day and in every way things are getting better and better. Choco ration up 30 grams. Doubleplusgood.

In Guangzhou, all the taxis and buses were natural gas before I even got there in 2005. And no, the noise comes from construction and the air pollution is mostly particulate matter from factories and power plants, not smog from cars.

She does write about the quirks and downsides of living in China.
She said she misses the dancing aunties in the courtyards, so she is obviously suffering from foreigner rosy glass syndrome as everyone hates the dancing aunties, the Ayi's and their 120dB boom boxes blaring from 9 PM to midnight in the summer months.

MiniTru said:
The problem with your takes is that they are too uniformly negative and lack nuance
I'll admit you are right about this. Thanks. I don't mind taking writing tips from a good propagandist.
 
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