Reprobates

[Blade Runner]

Says no verse in the Bible.

It says it all over the place. Knowing God is eternal life. Mental assent is not knowing God, it is not belief, it is knowledge about God, which any old person theoretically could have. Faithfulness, rightly directed action, is what "faith" is - keeping the commandments and also (very) importantly, repenting when we don't.

I don't see how any Christian disagree with this.

All this to say that you pay lip-service to God's providence, purpose, plan, etc, but you don't really believe it. You are trusting in yourself to make the difference, which is consistent in how you jump from one idol to another, in the various threads you engage in.

No, but I see where you are getting this wrong, and it's because your logic is circular. Since you think you know the mind and judgment of God - something you never address because it proves your arguments to be nonsense - everything becomes self trust and glory for you for the people who correctly believe that we have hope and trust in God, but we have to cooperate with what He wills for us and be faithful.

Your arguments make no sense in the bigger picture. God is doing all He can to save his creation, so it's pretty clear that those who don't want to be saved (made whole, well, brought to their purpose by God), reject Him. That's why he says:

He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

Since you think you know your judgment, you think you are "predestined". It's circular logic. Until you jettison this foolish idea, it's not something to argue. The problem of course with that, and yet another proof that you don't know your own judgment even, is that you also claim to know others judgment, which you also can't know. So it's even more bizarre to also claim to know their judgment and then condemn them as "reprobate" or whatever! You truly must have the mind of God!

To the contrary, we should follow in the footsteps of the Apostles, who taught that predestination is true and that because of that, the believer is confirmed in His work to strive after God.

Following in their footsteps would mean that you aren't teaching false teachings. The human is called, predesignated, foreordained, to be with God because that's what our fulfillment as human persons is, what our calling and purpose is as beings made in God's image. THIS is the reality.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

It says it all over the place.

Well that's convincing. Apparently, when Paul wrote "it does not depend on the will of man but it's up to God's mercy" what he really meant to say was "God is doing His part, but it's up to us to finish the job."

God is doing all He can to save his creation, so it's pretty clear that those who don't want to be saved (made whole, well, brought to their purpose by God), reject Him.

"God is doing all He can" but He is not able to save sinners because they don't allow Him to. Makes you think about who really occupies the place of God in this view. This is a category error that your theology forces you to make, you have it backwards: instead of thinking about what God can or cannot do because He is limited by human will, think instead on what man can or cannot do as he is limited by the Divine will.

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My Word.

Notice the word choice. They cannot hear His word. Not will not, cannot.

John 8:47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.

Why not? Because they are not of God.

 

[analyst_green]

If you want to go with the "historical" Orthodox position. There's nothing I can do to stop you. God will judge our intent and all will be revealed. But because of that, my desire is to warn you that it won't avail you in the last day.

If you are correct in your views of predestination, then why should we do anything at all? Because our fate is already decided, even this debate is pointless. Nothing you or I will say will help us be saved. The calvinist position leads to an utterly meaningless and mechanistic worldview.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

If you are correct in your views of predestination, then why should we do anything at all? Because our fate is already decided, even this debate is pointless. Nothing you or I will say will help us be saved.

When you are presented with the Word of God, one of two things will happen: Your hearts will soften and you will believe or your hearts will harden against it as you look for reasons to disbelieve. It is God's way of revealing who is His and who is not. The ends are predestined, our destinies, that is true. But so are the means: this conversation, all evangelism, etc.

The calvinist position leads to an utterly meaningless and mechanistic worldview.

Fundamentally, you feel this way because you don't find meaning in God's providence. You are deriving your meaning from your own will, your own plan. You are clinging to the idol of self-determination and it is causing you to miss the true purpose of God in what He's accomplishing in His creation. Let go of your will and put your trust in His will instead.

 

[Wutang]

Calvinists believe that God is covenantal and His covenantal promises are for "you and your children, and for all whom God will call to Himself." They believe that God is faithful to the families of His Elect, just as He was in the Old Covenant. They don't believe that they make babies just so God can send them to Hell.

Nevertheless, apostasy is real. God has pronounced judgement on all apostates. So if a Calvinist has a kid who grows up into an apostate, they will ultimately say "whatever God does is right." It's the opposite of the non-Biblical, free-will view where God is only considered good if He behaves within the parameters of what man's will allows Him to do.

My point if all of this is true, it seems better to never have children in the first place. As a Calvinist you can have assurance that God is faithful to His elect but you don't have assurance about who is part of the elect. As such it seems like "it would have been better for that man to never been born".

Also according to the Calvinist view it does appear a lot of humanity is created just for the sole purpose of punishing them because to a Calvinist, God must have these people to punish in order to display His Glory. If that is true I don't see how the conclusion Calvinists who believe in double predestination also must believe that the kids they had who fall away were created for the purpose of becoming vessels of wrath and that God already ordained Providence so that these people would first be born (as opposed to just not creating them at all) and also to ensure they would fail to be saved.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

My point if all of this is true, it seems better to never have children in the first place.

I know, but that doesn't logically follow, nor does it match reality. The biggest promoters of the family are Calvinists, I'm not talking about just having only one or two kids. They're also not into monkery. If anything, sometimes I feel that they can be too family focused, but that's by the by.

As a Calvinist you can have assurance that God is faithful to His elect but you don't have assurance about who is part of the elect.

Which is where the rest of the Scripture comes to bear on this issue. Are you born again? Are you fully trusting in Jesus Christ? Is He working in your life? Because these are the fruits that characterize the Elect.

Also according to the Calvinist view it does appear a lot of humanity is created just for the sole purpose of punishing them because to a Calvinist, God must have these people to punish in order to display His Glory.

Any presentation that presents God as being under compulsion in some way is a complete misunderstanding of Reformed theology, because Reformed theology is built on the opposite premise, that God is sovereign over His creation and accomplishes all His will. I'm glad you brought this up because a post by a "former Calvinist" who became Orthodox was shared, who was trying to make this point. Romans 9:22-23 is where you go if you want the Biblical answer for why God does not save everyone, even though He can. God wills to reveal Himself to His Church, not only His mercy but also His justice.

If that is true I don't see how the conclusion Calvinists who believe in double predestination also must believe that the kids they had who fall away were created for the purpose of becoming vessels of wrath and that God already ordained Providence so that these people would first be born (as opposed to just not creating them at all) and also to ensure they would fail to be saved.

If God's providence was false, then your destiny, and the destiny of your kids is left up to chance. Why risk having kids if chances are they'll end up in Hell?

 

[Rodion]

What is Election and Hardening in your view?

Comparing Chrysostom and Augustine on this issue shows that Augustine was far more Biblical in this area. Moreover, his theology was approved by council. Pelegianism is heresy. Man needs Grace in order to be saved, he cannot save himself by his own will.

I showed how a different interpretation is possible and gave evidence that the early Church, even a single generation removed from the Apostles affirmed human free-will. But we all just have a grant you that you know the objectively correct interpretation scripture and are thus the arbiter of what is and isn’t biblical? Why?

This is absurd

 

[Northumber]

Fundamentally, you feel this way because you don't find meaning in God's providence. You are deriving your meaning from your own will, your own plan. You are clinging to the idol of self-determination and it is causing you to miss the true purpose of God in what He's accomplishing in His creation. Let go of your will and put your trust in His will instead.

What do you mean? There is no will to let go of if I'm using the Calvinistic framework.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I showed how a different interpretation is possible and gave evidence that the early Church, even a single generation removed from the Apostles affirmed human free-will.

I read Chrysostom's commentary on Romans 9 that you shared. When Paul says that God hardens some and softens others, we're supposed to understand that as "we harden ourselves or soften ourselves"? I'm sorry, but that's eisegesis, and it's not possible if you're trying to exegete the text.

What do you mean? There is no will to let go of if I'm using the Calvinistic framework.

There is. It's what you'll be held accountable for. It's also why you sin.

 

[Blade Runner]

This is a category error that your theology forces you to make, you have it backwards: instead of thinking about what God can or cannot do because He is limited by human will, think instead on what man can or cannot do as he is limited by the Divine will.

If you are correct in your views of predestination, then why should we do anything at all? Because our fate is already decided, even this debate is pointless. Nothing you or I will say will help us be saved. The calvinist position leads to an utterly meaningless and mechanistic worldview.

Again, circular, Godfather. You are a determinist. It's even weirder though (I'm trying really hard for you to see this but you won't allow it), since part of the world's reality is that it is constantly changing. We are, in this life at least, subject to that so that's why we have to change ourselves - before you go silly on the "gotcha" again, submitting ourselves is part of OUR DECISION and will. Your focus on the will and God making us things (that we don't want to be, thus our discussion FREE will) is the category error.

As a Calvinist you can have assurance that God is faithful to His elect but you don't have assurance about who is part of the elect.

We say, God, save your people and bless your inheritance. If we have hope and ask for the mercy of God, we hope to be part of his people. Again, you keep dodging the mind of God question, proving my point: you don't know it. You are making yourself God and act like you aren't; indeed, it's absurd.

The biggest promoters of the family are Calvinists, I'm not talking about just having only one or two kids.

Another absurdity and bad argumentation. Muslims are all about having kids too.

But we all just have a grant you that you know the objectively correct interpretation scripture and are thus the arbiter of what is and isn’t biblical? Why?

This is absurd

Another person who doesn't know what he doesn't know. Knowledge of hermeneutics shows one that even if you understood language X perfectly, the interpretation can still be incorrect, because context, history, ancient beliefs and cultures, etc are all part of it.

 

[Northumber]

There is. It's what you'll be held accountable for. It's also why you sin.

Who does the "letting go of the will". ?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Who does the "letting go of the will". ?

Ultimately, God, who is causing you to will and to work for His good pleasure, if indeed His Spirit dwells in you.

You are a determinist.

Anyone who believes in foreknowledge at all is a determinist, whether they know it or not.

 

[Blade Runner]

You play language games, and aren't very good at it to boot. If we have no say in things, how can we be "good and faithful" servants?

Basically, all of this comes down to your insecurity about not knowing everything that is mysterious about the world, most specifically your insecurity in not being "assured" of things. While that issue is yours to deal with, you shouldn't put it on others, and certainly not with some theological angle as an attempt to (incorrectly) support it.

Well, I tried. I'll leave the ideas set forth at this point, and just hope for the tincture of time to set in.