This is just wrong, God allows us free will so that we have the choice to obey or not. Predestination is not predetermination, you have a mistaken understanding of scripture.
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This is just wrong, God allows us free will so that we have the choice to obey or not. Predestination is not predetermination, you have a mistaken understanding of scripture.
I disagree with your assertion of category error. Talking about what God "can" do is the category error. I look at Him as ontological, which is what God is. We don't have to get into this much more, but speaking on what he "can" do is rather silly. If He has being in himself, it's not all that useful to talk about what he can do, so I just showed that if you are going to speak like that, you're immediately fraught with other problems, and I pointed them out.
What's more, if people "end up" in Gehenna or the equivalent (let's say the Lake of Fire), apparently they had no hand in it. It doesn't take much thinking to see how problematic things instantly become if you have that point of view.
It gets even funnier - and thank God it isn't the case - but if it were the case, what's the point in telling anyone about the Gospel or talking about it at all? I don't see how one doesn't see this instantly and how ridiculous it is. If I had to accept that God just does "whatever He wants" then immediately it makes "life" both simple and stupid.
Agreed, so why do you keep making it? You told me I'm wrong to say that God can change the hearts of men.
You're very confused.
Not sure where you got that. They are literally the same word in the Biblical Greek.
Not true, use YLT the word is foreordained:
God's ordering of the universe does not preclude the free will which He gave us. He knows which of us will choose Him or not, for such is the ordaining of the universe, but it is not because we were forced to do so.
OK, but the Greek word behind foreordained is proorizo, which is what predestine, predetermine, foreordain means. So what I said is true, the Greek work behind any of those English words is the same, there is no distinction.
Well, I agree 100%. No one is "forced" to do anything. The Saints choose God because God has granted that to them, not by force, nor the will of man, but by regeneration. The reprobate do not want God, so God is not to blame for judging them for their sin.
This is why I said earlier that the heart of any unbridled syngerism is idolatry. Either God has to comply with the man-made, unbiblical model of works-righteousness or He is evil, bad, His design is stupid, etc.
If your system was Biblical, I could still accept it because I go where the Bible leads me. But you cannot accept otherwise because you follow what you think should be true, you instead turn it into an occasion to argue against God. I see this so often that I know synergism is false just based on the fruit it produces in its subjects.
You should find meaning in God's plan. If you find your meaning outside of God's plan, then that says everything.
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On what basis is your erroneous reading of scripture the correct one? Predestination was condemned and human free-will confirmed by the sixth ecumenical council.
That’s also a tremendous misunderstanding of theosis and synergism
Thankfully, God's Word is the Bible. Not the sixth Ecumenical Council.
On the basis of the New Testament repeatedly affirming predestination, repeatedly rejecting the role of the will of man in salvation, on the basis of not even using the term "free will" once.
Where in the 6th Ecumenical council do you see predestination being denied?
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So your interpretation is correct because that’s what the Bible says? Got it.
Here is the stumbling block Protestantism cannot overcome or even understand
Greek is not the original language, Aramaic and Hebrew were.
Sure. It's just my "interpretation."
That's true for the Old Testament. But the New Testament was written in Koine Greek. Every translation of the Bible you are reading from is translating from Greek manuscripts for the New Testament.
Mostly this is just talking past one another, but beyond that you have premises which are separate and incorrect that aren't part of the "bible" as you think they are, since you don't know what you don't know about hermeneutics. That's fine, it just gets to be silly when nothing even seems to be in good faith with any of the positions.
For example, you can't seriously believe that I don't agree with "finding meaning in God's plan". That's why I find this disingenuous.
Yes, because obviously plenty of other Christians would argue that Calvinist double predestination isn’t Biblical? Scripture + interpretation is unavoidable. If it was self-evident then everyone making that claim would possess uniformity of belief
But I’m getting off topic now
Here's what's really going on, people just don't like what the Bible says, so they filter out of the parts they don't like and fill it in with other philosophies that they do like to make up for the lack. It's called nominalism, and we all are guilty of it in our own way.
The doctrine of predestination is a very hard teaching. It requires complete faith in God's goodness, and a recognition that He is God and we are not, it attacks our pride. That's all the more reason why we should believe it. At the end of the day, the Gospel is ours to proclaim, it is not ours to edit.
That's not the case for me. While I am a sinner and as a human, will never be able to fully understand the details of what is going on, I have no problem with what the Bible says or what the Gospel teaches. While that may be rare, you tell me, I'm secure with it and accept it. That's what honest people do with life and why we are all at this forum - we accept life as is, regardless of how "fair" it might seem to be (or not) and try to make the best of it.
Trusting God has nothing to do with whatever you think "predestination" is. Your statement stands on its own.
I don't doubt God's goodness, but life is more complex than this, because we are sinful and sick and we need healing. Because we are broken, we lapse into periods of distrust and waywardness. This is not an excuse, it is a reality. The proof of it is that we sin. But God asks us to repent to show faithfulness, and that is more important than the mental assent of faith. I know this very well as it has been personally revealed to me, and yet I still sin. Paradoxically this shows us that we can't have "complete" faith in God, at least in this life, because we need him to help us, abide in us. Only if this happens can we approach that completeness, and the way I see it, that goes on forever.
You can’t just keep saying “people just don’t like what the Bible says” as though what the Bible says is self-evident and obvious to everyone.
Someone else can say “you just don’t like what the Bible says” when arguing for a different position.
It's my view that the doctrine of predestination is something that needs to be acknowledged yet it can't be spoken of too little. Whether someone is far away from God, seeking God, or resting in a relationship with Him, they ought focus their mind on repentance and clinging to Christ. In heaven the redeemed can talk about the elect and the reprobates; in this world men and women shouldn't focus on what God has hidden. No one truly knows who the elect are until they reach heaven.
Scripture teaches that God is sovereign, and that faith is a gift, but it also teaches that God appeals to our reason and our will or agency to choose life.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(Ezekial)
Scripture teaches that God is sovereign, and that faith is a gift, but it also teaches that God appeals to our reason and our will or agency to choose life.
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(Ezekial)
Well, they wouldn't be able to say that for free will, since the New Testament never teaches it. That's not a question of interpretation, that's just pointing out that the raw data is not there. Never is the human will said to be "free."
I have a copy of the Orthodox Study Bible. Everywhere the New Testament talks about man's incapacity, man's inability, the OSB is silent. Why is that?
You still haven't backed up your claim that the sixth ecumenical council condemned predestination in favor of free will. It wasn't even a topic of conversation at the council.