Property / Real Estate As An Investment

Even a small asset can give a young family the breathing room needed to be able to focus on other important aspects of life.
If you are young, especially if you are in a high cost of living area, it is socially acceptable to "house hack" by buying a place and renting out rooms or units. It lets you eliminate the cost of housing, giving you WAY more breathing room and setting you on a great trajectory. I can't recommend the strategy enough to millenials/Gen Z.
 
My wife and I have been looking for houses or townhomes in the starter home price range for our area. They all sell for well above asking and are on the market a week or less. We saw a twin on Friday that went on the market Thursday, and by Sunday they had accepted an offer. We were ready to place an offer for 15k over asking... our realtor relayed that and the response was basically "sorry losers."

Saw another house a week before at the open house with my 2 year old son. In a White but very impoverished are in Appalachia. House was a mess but mostly just superficial stuff that needed to be done. An affluent looking 65-70 year old looking woman got there right before us and was looking around making all sorts of weird comments, I suspect she was an investor or representing some entity. That one sold basically immediately as well.

Really hard time for actual families looking for their first home.
 
My wife and I have been looking for houses or townhomes in the starter home price range for our area. They all sell for well above asking and are on the market a week or less. We saw a twin on Friday that went on the market Thursday, and by Sunday they had accepted an offer. We were ready to place an offer for 15k over asking... our realtor relayed that and the response was basically "sorry losers."

Saw another house a week before at the open house with my 2 year old son. In a White but very impoverished are in Appalachia. House was a mess but mostly just superficial stuff that needed to be done. An affluent looking 65-70 year old looking woman got there right before us and was looking around making all sorts of weird comments, I suspect she was an investor or representing some entity. That one sold basically immediately as well.

Really hard time for actual families looking for their first home.
I bought my first home after the military 2 years ago right around the time of the interest rate crashing. We had a pretty hard time too. Not sure your price range, but I wound up buying a lot more house than I could afford initially. I used a VA loan and had a pretty hefty pile of cash... Was able to talk the sellers down nearly 100k due to the market crash and having funding in hand with an approved loan from the VA as loans were spiking due to interest rate increases.

God worked it out thankfully but that's what we had to do to get squares away. Not sure I'd recommend that but I got a promotion within a week of closing. I will say, owning winds up with so many expenses you don't forsee instead of renting.

Keep searching, we nearly closed on 1 house only to have it not work out last minute then God allowed us to wind up where we were and it has been perfect.
 
My wife and I have been looking for houses or townhomes in the starter home price range for our area. They all sell for well above asking and are on the market a week or less. We saw a twin on Friday that went on the market Thursday, and by Sunday they had accepted an offer. We were ready to place an offer for 15k over asking... our realtor relayed that and the response was basically "sorry losers."

Saw another house a week before at the open house with my 2 year old son. In a White but very impoverished are in Appalachia. House was a mess but mostly just superficial stuff that needed to be done. An affluent looking 65-70 year old looking woman got there right before us and was looking around making all sorts of weird comments, I suspect she was an investor or representing some entity. That one sold basically immediately as well.

Really hard time for actual families looking for their first home.
Rich people who got spooked out of their containment states are basically buying up property in every other state now. Like you mentioned they give above asking price, Ive heard around here it can go up to $50k over asking price. Even isolated boonie towns arent really that safe from these types. Unless you're making around $100k/year It's a real problem that locks anyone on an average salary to continue being a renter.
 
My wife and I have been looking for houses or townhomes in the starter home price range for our area. They all sell for well above asking and are on the market a week or less. We saw a twin on Friday that went on the market Thursday, and by Sunday they had accepted an offer. We were ready to place an offer for 15k over asking... our realtor relayed that and the response was basically "sorry losers."

Saw another house a week before at the open house with my 2 year old son. In a White but very impoverished are in Appalachia. House was a mess but mostly just superficial stuff that needed to be done. An affluent looking 65-70 year old looking woman got there right before us and was looking around making all sorts of weird comments, I suspect she was an investor or representing some entity. That one sold basically immediately as well.

Really hard time for actual families looking for their first home.
Another scenario I see developing:
- People like you(plus investors) have been waiting patiently on the sidelines watching. Inventory has been low so interested buyers are likely growing/building up.
- If the Fed does indeed cut rates sometime soon, this causes a flood of buyers at the lower rates. Prices rise again!

We as a society got used to cheap money, and now are clamoring for it.

The good scenario is if you do close on a home before this happens, you refi at the lower rates, and then prices go up and you build equity quickly. Best of luck to you sir.
 

Home Foreclosures Soaring, Especially In These States, Report Shows​

Completed foreclosures rose in several states.
By Mairead Elordi
Mar 15, 2024 DailyWire.com
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SLUG: ME-RINGOFFIRE DATE: 3/06/2008 PHOTOGRAPHER: Tracy A. Woodward/The Washington Post Foreclosure and Auction properties in Prince William County John Thompson, foreclosure specialist. Also, scenes of communities wherre there have been foreclosures. This foreclosure property is in the Blooms Crossing community of Manassas Park. (Photo by Tracy A. Woodward/The The Washington Post via Getty Images)
Tracy A. Woodward/The The Washington Post via Getty Images
Home foreclosures are soaring across the nation, especially in certain states, new data shows.
Tens of thousands of houses were facing foreclosure as of last month, according to a report from real estate data provider ATTOM.
 
Cheaper Than Buying in Top 50 US Metros:

The cost of buying a starter home was over 60 percent higher than renting.

Renting a home is now more affordable than buying one in 50 large metros across the United States, with elevated mortgage rates being a key reason affecting home affordability.
“In February 2024, the U.S. median rent continued to decline year-over-year for the seventh month in a row, down 0.4 percent for 0-2 bedroom properties across the top 50 metros,” according to a March 26 report from Realtor.com.
Renting was found to be “a more affordable option than buying in all of the 50 largest metros,” it said. The monthly cost of purchasing a starter home in these metros was $1,027 more, or 60.1 percent higher, than renting one.
“In the top 10 metros that favor renting over buying, the average monthly payments for a starter home were $1,950 (95.6 percent) higher than rents—nearly double,” the report said.
The top rent-favoring metros were usually markets with “a higher concentration of tech workers and high earners, where both the average rent-cost and buy-cost are higher than the national average.”
The report cited elevated mortgage rates as a “key driver” that has made buying a home less affordable.


The Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown metro area in Texas topped the list of markets where renting was favorable, with the monthly cost of buying a starter home in the city $3,695 more, or 141 percent higher, than renting. This was followed by Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue in Washington state, Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler in Arizona, and San Francisco-Oakland-Berkeley in California.
Five metros flipped from a buy-favoring market to a rent-favoring one in the past 12 months: Memphis, Tennessee; Birmingham, Alabama; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; St. Louis, Missouri; and Baltimore, Maryland.
The median asking rent for February in the 50 metros was $1,708, down by $4 from last month. Despite the seven months of continuous decline, the U.S. median rent was only $50 lower than the peak seen in August 2022.
The report comes amid a home affordability crisis in the country. A typical American household now earns $29,448 less than what it needs to purchase a median-priced home, according to real estate brokerage Redfin.
Prospective buyers required an annual income of $113,520 in February to afford a median-priced home worth $412,778. This annual income requirement is up 12 percent from a year earlier. Redin pointed out that home affordability is strained because housing costs rise “much faster” than people’s incomes.
Over the last year, the median household income has risen by 6 percent, only half as much as the income needed to afford a median-priced home, it stated.
“For over a decade, America has been slowly marching toward a housing affordability crisis due to chronic underbuilding, and that crisis was kicked into overdrive when the pandemic homebuying boom fueled a meteoric rise in housing prices,” said Redfin Senior Economist Elijah de la Campa.
“Now there’s another culprit squeezing homebuyers: elevated mortgage rates. We’re slowly climbing our way out of an affordability hole, but we have a long way to go. Rates have come down from their peak, and are expected to fall again by the end of the year, which should make homebuying a little more affordable and incentivize buyers to come off the sidelines,” he added.

Renting to Remain Cheaper​

Not many experts see buying homes becoming cheaper than renting anytime soon. Thomas Ryan, a property economist at Capital Economics, pointed out in a March 25 postthat even though the difference in cost will drop as mortgage rates decline, “even by 2026, renting will remain by far the more cost-effective option.”
In a March 18 post, real estate services firm CBRE said it expects renting to remain less expensive than buying a home for “some time.”
Over the next five years, CBRE predicts multifamily rents will grow by 2.8 percent per year. The firm calculates that a combination of lower mortgage rates and falling home prices will bring the cost of home ownership closer to renting.
As long-term mortgage rates remain above pre-pandemic levels, many homeowners will continue to stick with their homes that were financed at lower rates years ago, which will tighten the home sales market and boost home prices, according to CBRE.
CBRE expects an estimated shortage of 3.8 million housing units to keep supporting home prices and the cost-to-buy premium.
To buy a starter home in the United States, a first-time buyer now needs to make $76,000, according to Redfin. Before the COVID-19 pandemic, an individual making 80 percent of the median income could afford a typical home, which is now not the case.
Mr. Campa pointed out that the pandemic has “changed the definition of a starter home.” A decade ago, a small three-bedroom home was considered a starter home. But now, the same type of home can cost seven figures, especially in parts of the country where living costs are high.
“The most affordable homes are much smaller and often require a lot of work to make them habitable—which makes them cost even more. Today’s most affordable homes are still hard for the average American to afford, let alone the average first-time buyer who tends to put less money down in exchange for higher monthly payments,” he said.

Source:
 
Office space is worthless now, industrial and retail on the other hand keeps soaring which will prop up the overall numbers. I'm in the market for industrial space at the moment, the numbers are disgusting for anything that isn't a dump.
I'd be very careful investing in retail space.
Both Office space and Retail space are vastly over-built.

Apologies that I cannot find the charts, since Google has broken their search algorithm, but as I recall, the USA has more than twice the retail space per customer than other first world nations (ie twice as many malls, retail stores, and outlets, all competing for the same consumer expenditure). The US was already overbuilt on retail space before Covid-19 happened and really before Amazon happened (it was mostly selling books just a few years ago). C-19 has only made things much, much worse, as shopping shifts online (online shopping just means you are buying from a warehouse instead of a pretty, expensive retail store, and the cost of delivery is more than offset by the cost of real estate, employees, lighting, heating/cooling, cleaning, furnishings, etc.).

17626.jpeg


Retail was already so overbuilt, which is why you often see large stores completely collapsing, like Bed Bath and Beyond, which I always thought was a decent homestuff retailer, with almost 500 stores.

Combine that with the competition from online sales (all that stuff is going in warehouses that cost $20 / SF versus retail shopping space on highways that costs 5-10 times that much) and it's a further deathknell for retail space.

I don't really like Amazon and thought I used them rarely, when I can't readily find the product elsewhere--I was shocked to find out I made almost one purchase a month from them last year (10 orders in 2023). Most people who are regular Amazon shoppers are likely buying there almost weekly! Instead of visiting stores and shopping malls.

Warehouse space on the other hand, is a really broad category, and I've seen warehouses used for anything from storing inventory, to running small business operations (plumbers, electricians, etc.) to living space (I'm seeing more and more of this all the time, with the added benefit that it's often hidden from the tax man). Warehouse space will always be usable (but it's also very cheap to build and location is less important, so you can earn good stable income but you're not going to get filthy rich overnight).
 
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I'd be very careful investing in retail space.
Both Office space and Retail space are vastly over-built.

Apologies that I cannot find the charts, since Google has broken their search algorithm, but as I recall, the USA has more than twice the retail space per customer than other first world nations (ie twice as many malls, retail stores, and outlets, all competing for the same consumer expenditure). The US was already overbuilt on retail space before Covid-19 happened and really before Amazon happened (it was mostly selling books just a few years ago). C-19 has only made things much, much worse, as shopping shifts online (online shopping just means you are buying from a warehouse instead of a pretty, expensive retail store, and the cost of delivery is more than offset by the cost of real estate, employees, lighting, heating/cooling, cleaning, furnishings, etc.).

17626.jpeg


Retail was already so overbuilt, which is why you often see large stores completely collapsing, like Bed Bath and Beyond, which I always thought was a decent homestuff retailer, with almost 500 stores.

Combine that with the competition from online sales (all that stuff is going in warehouses that cost $20 / SF versus retail shopping space on highways that costs 5-10 times that much) and it's a further deathknell for retail space.

I don't really like Amazon and thought I used them rarely, when I can't readily find the product elsewhere--I was shocked to find out I made almost one purchase a month from them last year (10 orders in 2023). Most people who are regular Amazon shoppers are likely buying there almost weekly! Instead of visiting stores and shopping malls.

Warehouse space on the other hand, is a really broad category, and I've seen warehouses used for anything from storing inventory, to running small business operations (plumbers, electricians, etc.) to living space (I'm seeing more and more of this all the time, with the added benefit that it's often hidden from the tax man). Warehouse space will always be usable (but it's also very cheap to build and location is less important, so you can earn good stable income but you're not going to get filthy rich overnight).


Its location dependent obviously but here in Michigan retail space is crazy, the dumpiest of dump shopping centers goes up for sale and it's almost like don't even bother how everyone lines up with cash offers. I wouldn't invest in anything in the layout/size of a mall or very large retail that's all dead and has been dying for decades, I do agree with that. Small retail shopping centers standalone buildings in good locations such as closed drug stores, banks and things of that nature...I've actually done well with a couple of those but just like pretty much everything I wish I would have held longer. Who knew right?
 
But we are speaking in overall trends. Remember, individual cases always exist. There is someone in Detroit who is happy and rich right now. But the overall economic picture there is bleak.

Someone is making a good career right now repairing HAM radios. But that is not a field that is growing.

There are individual stores that people are going to shop at, even irrationally (expensive coffee shops are popping up in my area, even though we are already saturated with Starbucks and I thought Covid-19 made people realize I can brew my own coffee for 20 cents a cup, why am I paying $4 for it?). So you could end up rich if you owned a shop leased to a coffee company, but right next door there might be a building that has sat vacant for years. The overall *trend* is that retail and office are overbuilt sectors. But even then, you can find someone building a new office building that is going to fill up and be successful. That doesn't mean office space is a good place to invest.

And always remember everything is local--maybe where you are is experiencing population growth and you obviously need more restaurants and shops when there are more people around.
 
But we are speaking in overall trends. Remember, individual cases always exist. There is someone in Detroit who is happy and rich right now. But the overall economic picture there is bleak.

Someone is making a good career right now repairing HAM radios. But that is not a field that is growing.

There are individual stores that people are going to shop at, even irrationally (expensive coffee shops are popping up in my area, even though we are already saturated with Starbucks and I thought Covid-19 made people realize I can brew my own coffee for 20 cents a cup, why am I paying $4 for it?). So you could end up rich if you owned a shop leased to a coffee company, but right next door there might be a building that has sat vacant for years. The overall *trend* is that retail and office are overbuilt sectors. But even then, you can find someone building a new office building that is going to fill up and be successful. That doesn't mean office space is a good place to invest.

And always remember everything is local--maybe where you are is experiencing population growth and you obviously need more restaurants and shops when there are more people around.


Not saying things aren't rough out there but most wealth is generated from people taking advantage of downturns, by the time things turn around it's usually too late. Also I don't think this is like previous economic slowdowns simply because they pumped so much money into the economy, it's a different situation. Specific things will definitely become obsolete and/or crash but general speaking dollar amounts will always be high just because money is worth so much less now and that isn't going to go away. Things becoming obsolete and crashing isn't something new, that's always going to happen no matter the economic situation.
 
most wealth is generated from people taking advantage of downturns, by the time things turn around it's usually too late.
Speaking from experience, you always make money on your purchase.
general speaking dollar amounts will always be high just because money is worth so much less now and that isn't going to go away.
That is what makes me generally down on all real estate now. I own some, that a purchased at a fraction of its current selling prices, but I just can't see how you can make much money buying at these ridiculous prices.

I mean, Berkshire Hathaway is a great company. Has done better than any investment I've ever made. But if it cost 3x the current price? You can't make money. My real estate now is selling for 3x what I bought it for. It's nuts. I don't see how people can afford the rent / payments.

Owning something only makes sense within the broader picture of "at what cost though." Apple stock at $1,000 a share is ridiculous and not worth owning. You can't make money from that. At its current price of $170? Sure. Real estate prices are nearing that "ridiculous" level.

And you're right, I don't see it getting any better. Really, in a debt based fiat system, prices *can't* ever really go down in the long run.
 
Speaking from experience, you always make money on your purchase.

That is what makes me generally down on all real estate now. I own some, that a purchased at a fraction of its current selling prices, but I just can't see how you can make much money buying at these ridiculous prices.

I mean, Berkshire Hathaway is a great company. Has done better than any investment I've ever made. But if it cost 3x the current price? You can't make money. My real estate now is selling for 3x what I bought it for. It's nuts. I don't see how people can afford the rent / payments.

Owning something only makes sense within the broader picture of "at what cost though." Apple stock at $1,000 a share is ridiculous and not worth owning. You can't make money from that. At its current price of $170? Sure. Real estate prices are nearing that "ridiculous" level.

And you're right, I don't see it getting any better. Really, in a debt based fiat system, prices *can't* ever really go down in the long run.

I've never taken a bath on real estate but there are investments I wish I had never taken on, specifically residential real estate.....I never want to deal with that disaster again. Tenants who trash your place and you have to evict, non stop repairs, moving 10 more people in and subleasing the backyard as an RV park....I could go on. After everything was said and done that money and time would have been much better invested pretty much anywhere else, does not matter how cheap I got the houses for.


I would agree with you and I have been of the same sentiments for probably the past 5 years, "things are too expensive I'm waiting for them to correct". But it hasn't happened things have just kept going up, I wish I had bought 5 years ago, I wish I had bought every year prior. The past few years I've limited myself to real estate I felt was "safe" and low risk and each time it has done better than expected with me wishing I had taken more risk. To the contrary I have relatives who have been gobbling up everything they can the past 5 years even at bad terms something I never would have done or recommended and they have done extremely well making me look dumb for playing it safe

All of us waiting with cash on the sidelines for good entry points are doing just that.....being left on the sidelines while everyone else is playing the game and winning. Sure it may not last forever but every year we keep saying it's going to change and it hasn't. I remember like 8 years ago I wanted to buy a very upscale loft in a small town quaint downtown area which was still close to family and I didn't because I said to myself "I don't want to be upside down in a mortgage in a few years when housing crashes" so I stayed put in my current paid off house. Well hell that loft is worth triple now and I would have had it at a miniscule interest rate. I'm actually back in the market for a place as I hate my house, I live alone and I'm never home anyway so I don't need a full house with all the headache that comes with it. Well I'm left here wishing I had bought every year prior again....

It's a tough situation and I'm not sure what to make of it at this point. I'm almost at the point where I'm thinking the crash already happened but because of all the money dumped into the economy it just wasn't like before, we need to throw the old price points completely out the window.
 
I would agree with you and I have been of the same sentiments for probably the past 5 years, "things are too expensive I'm waiting for them to correct". But it hasn't happened things have just kept going up, I wish I had bought 5 years ago, I wish I had bought every year prior.
At some point, though, the math just doesn't work. I have a rental in a neighborhood that is now charging over 2.5 times for rent than when I bought it. Regardless of what inflation is, the kind of person who lived in a $500 / month place simply cannot pay $1,000-$1,500 a month today (this is a lower income but stable neighborhood in (what used to be) a low cost of living state).

And for people who can, they aren't going to pay $1,300 to live in a place with no laundry or parking. (This may sound cheap if you live in a big city, but maybe double that and ask yourself if people will pay that price and have to carpool or take the bus to do laundry off-site).

Maybe minimum wage is going to be irrelevant soon, and jobs will have to pay enough that these people can afford $1,500 rents but as of now the math just doesn't work (even more so for the Social Security retiree that cannot increase his income no matter what happens).

I'm very conservative when it comes to investments, due to being burned, in multiple ways. So maybe I'm missing out on something, but I'm extremely hesitant to buy at these high prices, just as I am hesitant to buy a crypto coin that costs tens of thousands of dollars, or a stock trading at 100 times its earnings. That math just don't compute.

I guess the "best case scenario" is that the prices continue to rise and the neighborhood becomes gentrified and then new people can afford my rents, which is a win for me but the old tenants are now going to be living in ghetthos.... America doesn't care though.
 
At some point, though, the math just doesn't work. I have a rental in a neighborhood that is now charging over 2.5 times for rent than when I bought it. Regardless of what inflation is, the kind of person who lived in a $500 / month place simply cannot pay $1,000-$1,500 a month today (this is a lower income but stable neighborhood in (what used to be) a low cost of living state).

And for people who can, they aren't going to pay $1,300 to live in a place with no laundry or parking. (This may sound cheap if you live in a big city, but maybe double that and ask yourself if people will pay that price and have to carpool or take the bus to do laundry off-site).

Maybe minimum wage is going to be irrelevant soon, and jobs will have to pay enough that these people can afford $1,500 rents but as of now the math just doesn't work (even more so for the Social Security retiree that cannot increase his income no matter what happens).

I'm very conservative when it comes to investments, due to being burned, in multiple ways. So maybe I'm missing out on something, but I'm extremely hesitant to buy at these high prices, just as I am hesitant to buy a crypto coin that costs tens of thousands of dollars, or a stock trading at 100 times its earnings. That math just don't compute.

I guess the "best case scenario" is that the prices continue to rise and the neighborhood becomes gentrified and then new people can afford my rents, which is a win for me but the old tenants are now going to be living in ghetthos.... America doesn't care though.


But there lies the issue right? The numbers absolutely do not make any sense we've never seen anything like this before. It was always what goes up must come down, it goes in cycles it's natural for the economy to go up and down, the numbers anyway. But now they have pumped so much into it, don't quote but I think something like triple the amount of money in circulation since covid, will we see the numbers go down? You can make a case that the numbers now are actually low for what they should be in comparison to how much money they pumped in.
 
But there lies the issue right? The numbers absolutely do not make any sense we've never seen anything like this before. It was always what goes up must come down, it goes in cycles it's natural for the economy to go up and down, the numbers anyway. But now they have pumped so much into it, don't quote but I think something like triple the amount of money in circulation since covid, will we see the numbers go down? You can make a case that the numbers now are actually low for what they should be in comparison to how much money they pumped in.
I am assuming there will be high inflation due to the excessive national debt, and the declining role of the $US as a reserve currency. Therefore, as high as prices and land values are now, I think the prices will continue to go way up.

The value of real estate might go up in dollars, but might go down in real terms. Using the Big Mac index for example, you might have a $500K house worth 60,000 Big Macs in today's prices, and find that 5 years from now that house is worth $1m, but that it will only be about 40,000 Big Macs by then. So, twice the price in dollars, but down 33% in real terms.

Still, if you bought with a small down payment, and rented it out, your equity would go up a lot.
 
I just put a $500k house under contract for a friend. It last sold for less than $200k in April 2012, which is coincidentally when I met that friend. It makes me think, he and I could have scraped together $7-10k for a 3.5-5% down FHA loan and rented out a room or two to roommates while living frugally.

Until the last couple of years the Fed said inflation was "low" and always around 1-3%. That is clearly complete BS as this normal middle-class home 2.5x'd during that time period.

At least if he keeps it, it should be a $1M home in another 8 to 12 years.
 
At least if he keeps it, it should be a $1M home in another 8 to 12 years.
I've never understood why people view rising costs as a good thing.

A good or service, *particularly one we MUST have as opposed to just WANT* becoming more expensive, is never a good thing.

Go to a financial calculator and run the numbers on financing a million dollar loan over 30 years.
(I just did it and at a 7% interest rate you are paying over $5.5 million in interest to buy such a house).

It would be one thing if housing were becoming more expensive vis a vis other items. But that's not the case. Housing costs are rising along with car costs and food costs and energy costs and healthcare costs and education costs. No one argues that "the cost of an education is going up at 12% a year, I'm so happy I'm going for a graduate degree".

If your buddy's house costs $1m, it means he is paying annual property taxes on a million dollar home (that's tens of thousands of dollars every year for the same house he owns today) and if he wants to move, he will need over a million dollars to afford a larger home, will probably need to finance the purchase (see above) and will probably owe taxes on the "gain" lol

The only person rising housing prices makes sense for is someone like me who plans on exiting the US and moving to a place where $400,000 can buy you a mansion with a pool and daily chef and maid service. And I'm not happy about the rising prices.

I mean, don't get me wrong, owning a house when prices are rapidly rising is better than just being stuck paying rent, but it's a hedge or a way of coping with a bad situation; it's not a positive thing for anyone except banks and governments.

TL;DR if your friends house is worth a million dollars he is not any wealthier than he is today; probably less so.
 
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