Ortho Lounge

Most parish priests that I've met (especially of the Baby Boomer generation) generally view America favorably and the entire American project/culture/ethos as something that isn't destructive to the spiritual life and that can be reconciled with Orthodoxy (both of these are obviously false in my view).
Perhaps it is because your analysis and summary of what you have also experienced is so similar to mine, and so true beyond that, I honestly think it's the post of the year, my friend. Great work and thank you.

Yes, anything theoretically can be reconciled, but you and I both know that what effectively things turn out to be and look like in the big picture is the most important. Indeed, God is working through all of this but it's evident to me (and to you) that while we give the materialism stuff some lip service, most of us in America, and certainly the older boomers and silents, are hooked on the "juice" so to speak.
American culture doesn't really mean anything at this point except love of comfort and money and whatever is manipulated to become popular on TV and other media. You'll get luckier with priests the younger they are, since younger priests often understand better the issues facing people in their 20s/30s.
Precisely. I say this as someone who Fs around all the time, has done well in life materially, and has been fortunate to have done very well. That doesn't mean I'm not honest about what I am, what I see, and what I have as expectations. I think you are right also with the younger priests being far more aware, and analyst gets into that later as well (they are more ideal and less experienced, but that also can be better because they can really see things the older people just get lazy and ignore).
When Christians went to Rome during the early Church, they didn't view Rome as this great thing that they were just so happy to be apart of. They viewed it as an evil Empire that needed to be converted and brought the light of Truth. This is not the sense that I get in the vast majority of Orthodox parishes I've seen or visited in America among the laity and priests: even immigrant priests often see America as this great thing and it's such a privilege to be in the US. They don't have the long view and don't see that most immigrant families have the first-generation attending church regularly, the 2nd generation not taking it very seriously, and the 3rd generation having virtually no connection to it. This is often not just a product of the wider American culture outside of the Church, but I think is also due to the parishes/churches themselves (they simply feel too worldly, too Americanized, and too unserious/unsacred to really compel people to sincerely take the faith seriously).
This is what I find so amusing; even the Christians are far more hooked on the good life and what they were seeking in the new world than they admit. I speak with family members (immediate) all the time about our extended family and the generational realities of exactly what you are saying, they are spot on. When I visited Serbia, by the way, I found that in Belgrade the serious Orthodox were doing public processions to remind their kinfolk/countryment that they are Orthodox and that should be important. So I think modernity has this, even in really faithful countries like that (still they are a minority, the real devoted/faithful).
If a priest can't see the issues with the outside culture and just wants to be a part of that culture, of course they aren't going to tell you it's necessary to travel abroad to find a wife. They also probably have zero idea about the issues facing young people today in terms of family formation and housing.
I don't know because I haven't shaken down many priests. It's funny because I'm fairly convinced that we are right here and that it's a waste of time and I almost don't want to be disappointed in being "right." I've told you or others, I'm pretty sure, about how some of the better antiochian priests and bishops commented on this (I heard from others who attended a young men's retreat or some such thing) and the response was that "the women would eventually come in" (to the church) where the men are. That felt amazingly indifferent and basically willing to sacrifice an entire generation or two of both men and women, because you don't want to be bothered with the "scandal" of telling women what their role is. It seemed pretty clear that knowing what the predispositions of men are (not caring about other men really, just like women not caring about average or below average men) that they were doing the whole "just suck it up men, it's your fault, stop watching porn and get a job!" lol
Him and his wife were basically both agnostic/atheist growing up and met in high school and stayed together locally and got married several years after high school. A short time later, both converted to Orthodoxy. They are both really exceptional people.
Sounds like the Fr. Moses story, which is great. The problem is that it's largely irrelevant, or is such a rare thing that it's basically irrelevant.
St. John Chrysostom advises men to marry a poor and young woman (not a rich or older one).
Interesting. He mentioned in that hot-holy matrix something like this. But what does Chrysostom, know, right? :p
Even in day-to-day life, Orthodoxy has so deeply penetrated into the culture of Greece, Romania, Russia, etc. that there are some things you just can't put into words.
Yes. I've always yearned for a country to have what seemed natural for us in the west who didn't have that reality and culture steeped in our history.
One day I will ask him about the topic of marriage and going abroad to see what he thinks.
I'd love to hear it. Thanks in advance.
The first is unpalatable for most men, and the second can work only for a very select few who are of an independent and adaptable mindset.
And one needs money to boot. I think I'll be able to do it, just not sure what my calling is as of yet. The family part is the final issue, as you mention after.
I'm okay if she's not perfect as long as she has some humility and is willing to accept God's will for her, to try to change.
I agree. The sticking point really is (especially if you are over 40) the age of the woman, and older women and men hating on this. That's why even in my mid 30s I had seen the writing on the wall and gave up on the west/my home country.
 
What's your take on the particulars above? I'm curious - should I bother asking or ask generically what they think about moving to another country (at least for a while)?
Your question has been answered more comprehensively than I'm prepared to do so let me point out one simple thing that's omitted easily: if every priest had equally good spiritual advice then St. Paisios would see Greeks only.

I'm in a similar position as you are, I more and more feel like a guest in my home country as my Orthodox phronema grows. When you are Orthodox moving to a natively Orthodox country makes more sense the further you go. You can go mad and analyze this to death or skip that and go straight to the point: US is the great satan that seeks to destroy christians, pack your shit and move to Serbia already.

 
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And one needs money to boot.
Yes or if your job can be done remotely, you can make it as a remote freelancer.

if every priest had equally good spiritual advice then St. Paisios would see Greeks only
Then even the Greeks wouldn't need to leave their villages and trudge all the way to Mount Athos.

Though it's not just about advice. Many people came to St Paisios and were healed instantly of their problems, be they physical or spiritual. God's energies radiate simply from his presence and faith alone.

I'm in a similar position as you are, I more and more feel like a guest in my home country as my Orthodox phronema grows. When you are Orthodox moving to a natively Orthodox country makes more sense the further you go. You can go mad and analyze this to death or skip that and go straight to the point: US is the great satan that seeks to destroy christians, pack your shit and move to Serbia already.
Even though I was born in an Orthodox country, I feel like leaving the US would be a show of ingratitude. This country has given me great job and financial opportunities and has made me who I am, for better or worse. I would feel guilty going back to Bulgaria. And America really needs every single Orthodox Christian it can get at this point. Or maybe this is just the great satan talking and trying to keep its claws in us.

But yes, I often feel like I don't belong here either. The materialism and the social fragmentation can be really overwhelming. And sin is glorified around every corner.
 
Or maybe this is just the great satan talking and trying to keep its claws in us.
What's funny is that this moniker can be weirdly true and false at the same time - it's sort of like whether you understand what "antichrist" is, truly, which is "in place of" or instead of, Christ. That's what the Greek means, in fact, and it's important to know that nuance. So the US (forgetting what the Iranian Mullahs say, for example) is a sly trickster in a sense - it has provided materialism and entertainment to numb our senses, and distract us from putting certain things first (God of course), so we often follow things/passions instead of Christ. In Rome and Russia, your enemy was clear, which is a huge stumbling block for modern people who don't really see very much at all anymore, or can't see through very basic things in my view.

What I'm getting at a bit in this thread - and thank you to all of those who have posted here with quality in responding - is that after a while you feel like Neo when Morpheus is talking to him in the movie. Something's not right, something is better, something is more real, fulfilling, or there is a purpose out there that may entail suffering but it will be better (over the long haul or eternity).

I'm also really interested, though not sure I should be, in this conundrum that so many otherwise smart and wise men have opinions or major lack of awareness of what's (been) going on. I refer to some of the priests I've considered in previous posts. You'd think that they might have this awareness from the spiritual realm, or some such thing, but it turns out (or seems) that they don't. At all. I find that perplexing and somewhat sad, as it seems to me that our physical and mental existence thus trumps the spiritual, at least in this understanding. And it's a really important topic, as I don't think anyone would claim that men and women getting together appropriately and having children isn't basically, the point of life in many ways, for most people.
 
Even though I was born in an Orthodox country, I feel like leaving the US would be a show of ingratitude. This country has given me great job and financial opportunities and has made me who I am, for better or worse. I would feel guilty going back to Bulgaria. And America really needs every single Orthodox Christian it can get at this point. Or maybe this is just the great satan talking and trying to keep its claws in us.
The latter. You don't owe US jack shit. You owe it to God and you can do that from any place in the world. Roosh said that since he stopped writing bang books writing has become much harder, in other words satan helped him write. Therefore should Roosh keep writing smut out of gratitude to satan for his writing ability? Of course not.
 
Roosh said that since he stopped writing bang books writing has become much harder, in other words satan helped him write.
I wonder how he sees things now. I will give him this - he was a very talented writer. I didn't really buy much of the other stuff, though that could be colored by my experience and competitiveness, but I did think it was fairly apparent (not knocking him, just being honest).

The next 5-10 years are going to be really quite revealing. It could be to the extent that many things just happen and are self evident, or we lose any care of dealing with morons and their stupid socialist or commie takes any longer (or the feels and women apologist/feminist crowd).

Regarding my point on the other and pretty good or wise elders/priests, I really am not coming from a place of a know it all. I'm actually equally confused as to how this stuff, which is quite obvious to me, is so hard for others to "get". I don't think it's easy for most, since I'm aware that so few of the people in society have this kind of critical thinking aptitude, but I don't find it particularly "special" at all in some egocentric way. I'm just disappointed in how rare some of these gifts (I really don't know what to call them, they seem so rare) are.
 
I'm actually equally confused as to how this stuff, which is quite obvious to me, is so hard for others to "get". I don't think it's easy for most, since I'm aware that so few of the people in society have this kind of critical thinking aptitude, but I don't find it particularly "special" at all in some egocentric way.
One more thing on this point: you guys do in fact understand, that's why I know it's quite possible, and though rare - God knows we do have to go to the bowels of the internet like here to even find those who think like us - there are still many more who DO "get it".

I would guess, however, that most of us here are certainly not older than late 40s or early 50s, right?
 
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