Not taking revenge, turning the other cheek

TooFineAPoint said:
GodfatherPartTwo got what I was saying, and Rodion did not.

Having a gate, locking your door, and having some tools of self defence in your house would not make one "worried about looking weak or foolish", they would make one prudent. But that is about white hot self defence.
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In my defense, you didn’t talk about locking your door or having a gate. You discussed planning a Monte Cristo style brutal revenge plot, leaving your enemy beaten & broken. It also wasn’t at all clear that your post was tongue-in-cheek.

Implying from my post that I am against having gates, locks and even some weapons is extraordinary.
 
scary_robot_music said:
What country or part of the world are you from, out of curiosity? I ask because revenge is a very big part of some cultures and I'm interested in this on a personal level because my wife is from one of those places. I don't want to say the specific country, but it's one of the poorer, more violent parts of Latin America. The collective effect of millions of people obsessed with taking vengeance on each other for all kinds of wrongs, real and just perceived, really makes it an unpleasant place.
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What's even more disturbing: some cultures even value treachery as a virtue and something that is to be honored. I can think of some indigenous South American cultures that value lying to people and pulling things over on them. It's seen as "wisdom" and "power." It only goes to show the depths of the depravity of man without God.
 
I think the Seraphim of Sarov incident needs some expounding upon because, even Christians do not understand it properly.

The first thing to note is that Saint Seraphim is a priest and a priest is forbidden to kill others. So his decision to not defend himself with his axe is not an act of weakness but of extreme strength and conviction, that it is better to die than to risk breaking a sacred vow. A coward would have run from the attackers and a man lacking conviction would have attempted to use the axe as a weapon against them.

Examples like this do not negate self defence. Prudent Orthodox priests who also don't want to risk breaking their vows ensure that their wife and children are capable of using weapons for defence. No sane Christian says we should let an attacker kill our family. But Christians are called to die for their principles. For laymen, whilst killing is a grievous sin and even doing so in self defence or in a war is treated with a penance of excommunication for a time, they are not expected to avoid lethal force in self defence. Priests are however forbidden from doing so, and would thus have to die rather than kill if it comes to it, or else face being defroked.

When it comes down to it, I am sure many priests would sacrifice their orders to save others. But its not something they would do lightly.
 
stadtaffe said:
I think @GoodShepherd is referring to the cases when God effectively carries out the revenge not where you plot and do it yourself.

Unlike some other posters in this thread I have had some inkling as to what has happened with those who have wronged me. There were a few severe and milder punishments which came their way. One possible explanation is that whatever these people do to you is probably not an isolated case, they probably have a sequence of these such events around them which eventually manages to catch up with them and either turn everyone against them or destroy their soul on the inside.

This depends on whether you are dealing with -
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
or the inverse -
Father do not forgive them for they know exactly what they are doing!

I had to upvote for you posting that revenge genre film Count Of Monte Cristo. I love that genre. Can recommend the following revenge films.

Two part film Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources. The wronging takes part in the first and revenge in the second :

Girl with the Dragon Tatoo
Daniel Craig version :
Swedish version (Män som hatar kvinnor) :

The Revenant

Interestingly all of these films are based on books.

Someone told me to watch that last one The Revenant as it contains a warning about what may happen with you if you become obsessed with carrying out revenge.
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I did watch some of those movies before, there is so much more freedom in actually forgiving people and praying for them, imagine the count of monte Cristo if he spent all those years prayer for his enemies while in prison, I think he would have turned out much happier and God would have also done a much better job of avenging than what we can do. Have you ever read the book of Ester in the Bible, that a great story of how God avenges a person.
 
GodfatherPartTwo said:
I already see the tension in this thread between genuine forgiveness and being weak. If someone comes to your door to harm your family, you have a duty to fight them. It is not in any way pious to let them in.

But true forgiveness is very liberating, it feels good to truly forgive someone. I think of forgiveness as a cup that has to be drunk. When you were sinned against, that cup was filled. It is only natural for the person who filled that cup to have to drink it. But you cannot force that person to drink that cup. The godly thing to do is to drink that cup even though the other person was the one who filled it. This is how Jesus forgives us. And this forgiveness leads to reconciliation. True forgiveness feels like you were wronged twice, which is why it is hard to do, it almost feels "unjust."
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True we have a duty to self defense in a sense that we must protect our families and also go to war to protect a nation, there was a time once that 3 guys, workers were harassing my wife everytime she went for a walk alone and she complained to me about it, so I went to those guys and I had to threaten them with violence and I had to use some fowl language etc but from that day on they never botheres her again, or lets say someone had to try hurt my kids, you could even be a woman or an animal I would have to use violence against them, I have seen some video where these groups of woman beat up guys and because the guys have been trained that they not supposed to hit woman they just lay there and take it, I saw a video of a guy refusing to protect his girlfriend from other female attackers and his girlfriend was beaten up and he was actually a big guy he could have ended that fight. I would still forgive the people afterwards and pray for them afterwards but when there is present threat we have a duty to protect our loved ones in this way and risk our lives doing it
 
Wutang said:
For me I haven't never really had an issue with desiring revenge or taking concrete action to get back at someone who had attacked me. Even just from a purely utilitarian perspective you typically don't get any benefit from plotting revenge and many times it just digs you into a deeper hole.

My issue was always been more taking pleasure in the fall of people who I once had some sort of relationship with then ended up becoming enemies later on. It doesn't go as far as wishing any sort of physical harm or big traumatic event on them that destroys their lives. It's more of deriving pleasure from their frustrations and unhappiness in the state of their lives and seeing them fail. What makes it easier for me to succumb to this sort of mentality is that these people have a lot of traits that I usually mock and that these people are types that I typically view with contempt.

To give a concrete illustration, there's this girl I was in this social circle with who is the prototypical SJW millennial female that we make fun of all the time on here. She's a feminist, a vegan, and a lesbian who makes being LGBT a core part of her personality and identity and will never miss a moment to remind you how gay she is and how much she loves being gay and to find hidden hints of something being gay or transgender in all the media she consumes; which consists of mostly children's cartoons and other pop culture soy slop. She also supports every liberal/leftist cause in a reflexive NPC manner whether it be Bernie 2016 (and 2020), BLM, etc. She's a major stoner and just like with her being LGBT, she insists on making it a major part of her identity and spends tons of time chronicling when she's high and how she wish she was high and how she couldn't be functional (which assumes she is functional to begin with - something that is very much in doubt) without weed. And as expected from someone who possesses all these traits and interests, she's constantly depressed and has been checked into the psych ward a few times and is hopped up on sort of medication to treat the many mental ailments she claims to have been diagnosed with. Her work experience consists of a series of low-skill jobs, mostly of the waitressing variety which she has taken extended breaks from due to her unstable mental state.

I had a falling out from the social group that we were both part of so I don't have any contact with her. The reason I know all this information is because she has a public Twitter account where she regularly posts about how she's gay, depressed, high, and where she develops theories about how some hand signal used by some celebrity in a photograph must be a sign that person is secretly some sort of Marxist trans-cyborg. I have a habit of hopping on her Twitter in order to gawk and point fingers and laugh at the way her life is unfolding. I've done this with a few of the other people from the social group we were part of who have similar lifestyles and viewpoints including one guy that turned into a troon about a year or two ago. These people have had similar life outcomes as the girl I described. They are going nowhere in life and pretty much doing the same things in their late 20s that they were doing in their late teens only with more depression and anxiety since the freshness of youth is fading and they no longer have the excuse of being young and dumb. Now they are just merely dumb.

While I'm not actively working against these people in the same way someone who is after revenge is, I'm committing a similar sin by getting a kick out of watching them stumble and making themselves miserable. I'm more conventionally successful in my life and it's very easy for me to slip into a mode where I'm comparing myself to them and counting the ways I'm winning over them. The two sins I see here are me both taking joy in the suffering of another human being and being prideful in thinking of my own supposed superiority over them instead of thinking about the ways I could have ended up walking the paths they are on now. Now I do think they are reaping the harvest of the seeds they have planted and are being paid the "wages of sin" from their actions well as from their posture towards God (all of these people are anti-Christianity) but ultimately we aren't called to be the ones that dispense what someone is owed. That is to be done either from the state whom God has entrusted the sword to in the temporal life or God himself in either the temporal life or after. It is very much a weakness of my flesh and my mind to want be both the judge and executioner of these people when I'm not the one called to be either. This is one of times that I am glad I've been exposed to Faith and the teachings of Christ since if I was following my own natural mind I know I would be definitely gleeful over what is going on in their lives which would be to the detriment of my soul.
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There is a place for self defense, for example if you with your parents and someone is trying to rob them then you should help your parents and even while defending them it can be done with honor you dont have to become an animal, but if someone wronged you and you find out a week later its wrong to go and do a premiditated revenge attack, thats no loner self defense and its going to harm your soul and also the other person and doesnt work the righteousness of God either, the gypsies have a very strong revenge culture and they have caused their society, their families and themselves great harm, for example watch the worlds toughest prisons show in Romania, they gypsies are a minority race there but 70% of the prison population and the prisioners are misrable and their faces are full of hate so it didnt even help them in the end.

What helped me to pray for my enemies was to also realize that I have also wronged God and others so its only fair to have forgivness for others since God has also showed mercy towards me, an undeserving sinner, when I pray for my enemies Im praying for them with this in mind that I muself deserve to go to hell and just like I would like if Gid has mercy on me on judgement day I would like to also be merciful to those around me, it also cultivates love in you when you prayer for our enemies, I see you not Orthodox but if you could get a copy of our prayer book there are some good prayers in there to help and guide your words so that these prayers can eventually come from your heart
 
I don't know if this is just a coincidence, but I have a similar story at my old workplace.

TL;DR My senior at work hates me 100%, insulted me and made me one of the worst performer. After several years she resigned due to conflicts with the managers, vindicating me.

At that time I was still a junior and only worked there for two months. During this short time there was no trouble and business as usual, but I got information that a new senior will be assigned to our team.

The senior was a conventionally attractive (tall, fair complexion, slim, long haired) woman in her mid twenties. She is also a very ambitious and overachieving person, that she already got a master's degree and able to speak multiple languages. I thought with a senior like her it will increase our team's productivity.

But around one month time since she joined our team, I was starting to get sidelined from tasks and assignments, and often became out of the loop. Every time I tried to talk to her she always answered in short sentences without interest in conversation, and when I called her she does not answer.

Eventually things get worse and she blocked my number, so I totally cannot call or message her. Even my emails are not replied by her. My work performance suffered because I do not know what to do or what my assignments are. Since she was my senior the line of communication was broken. Assignments from the partners and managers were not relayed to me. When at an opportune moment we sit together, I confronted her with questions like why she do this to me? She answered that I am out of line and she cannot deal with me anymore, that I absolutely have no respect for her and so there is no point in her being nice to me, that my work is not done correctly so she has to personally complete my work, that due to my incompetence she is held responsible by the manager, that my work and skills is comparable to highschoolers, and many other things. Since she is the senior people believed her, and I became one of the worst performer and worst reputable person in the entire division under the partners.

Not long after that I got moved to a different team, but we still keep communication through a WhatsApp group. Purpose of this group was for communication inside the team, and even though I have move to a different team I was still in the group to communicate prior outstanding work. At one time she asked me about prior assignments, but somehow after I answered she lost her temper and told me that I talk carelessly, that I need to get in a language class, and she even called me a bitch.

Sometime after that there was another talk about prior work, and again she gets angry. She told me in the WhatsApp group that I am a total trash, that I am jealous of her because she is the senior in charge, that I am an irresponsible person, and she even literally challenged me to a fight! (I'm not making things up, until now I still have the screenshotted conversation).

Finally at other moment there was another questions about my prior work. Again she got angry and told me that I am a nobody to her, that I should take a look in the mirror and she is disgusted by me. In the end she called me irresponsible and she always have to take blame for my mistakes, and then she kicked me out of the WhatsApp group.

I did not care anymore since by this time I was already in another team. Although she really hated me I did not hate her back.

One year passed and I requested to be transferred to a different partners and division to gain more experience. After one month in the new division I hear news that the senior has resigned. I wonder why since she has a great career there. After asking coworkers who are still with her, I received information that she essentially get into a fight with the managers, the fight was bad enough that she cried and handed her resignation letter immediately after the fight.

I was shocked by this, why in just one month since I transferred to a new division she got into a fight with the superiors and resigned? Although it does not matter anymore, this event is a definite proof that she is the one who always instigate conflicts.
 
Doraemon said:
I don't know if this is just a coincidence, but I have a similar story at my old workplace.

TL;DR My senior at work hates me 100%, insulted me and made me one of the worst performer. After several years she resigned due to conflicts with the managers, vindicating me.

At that time I was still a junior and only worked there for two months. During this short time there was no trouble and business as usual, but I got information that a new senior will be assigned to our team.

The senior was a conventionally attractive (tall, fair complexion, slim, long haired) woman in her mid twenties. She is also a very ambitious and overachieving person, that she already got a master's degree and able to speak multiple languages. I thought with a senior like her it will increase our team's productivity.

But around one month time since she joined our team, I was starting to get sidelined from tasks and assignments, and often became out of the loop. Every time I tried to talk to her she always answered in short sentences without interest in conversation, and when I called her she does not answer.

Eventually things get worse and she blocked my number, so I totally cannot call or message her. Even my emails are not replied by her. My work performance suffered because I do not know what to do or what my assignments are. Since she was my senior the line of communication was broken. Assignments from the partners and managers were not relayed to me. When at an opportune moment we sit together, I confronted her with questions like why she do this to me? She answered that I am out of line and she cannot deal with me anymore, that I absolutely have no respect for her and so there is no point in her being nice to me, that my work is not done correctly so she has to personally complete my work, that due to my incompetence she is held responsible by the manager, that my work and skills is comparable to highschoolers, and many other things. Since she is the senior people believed her, and I became one of the worst performer and worst reputable person in the entire division under the partners.

Not long after that I got moved to a different team, but we still keep communication through a WhatsApp group. Purpose of this group was for communication inside the team, and even though I have move to a different team I was still in the group to communicate prior outstanding work. At one time she asked me about prior assignments, but somehow after I answered she lost her temper and told me that I talk carelessly, that I need to get in a language class, and she even called me a bitch.

Sometime after that there was another talk about prior work, and again she gets angry. She told me in the WhatsApp group that I am a total trash, that I am jealous of her because she is the senior in charge, that I am an irresponsible person, and she even literally challenged me to a fight! (I'm not making things up, until now I still have the screenshotted conversation).

Finally at other moment there was another questions about my prior work. Again she got angry and told me that I am a nobody to her, that I should take a look in the mirror and she is disgusted by me. In the end she called me irresponsible and she always have to take blame for my mistakes, and then she kicked me out of the WhatsApp group.

I did not care anymore since by this time I was already in another team. Although she really hated me I did not hate her back.

One year passed and I requested to be transferred to a different partners and division to gain more experience. After one month in the new division I hear news that the senior has resigned. I wonder why since she has a great career there. After asking coworkers who are still with her, I received information that she essentially get into a fight with the managers, the fight was bad enough that she cried and handed her resignation letter immediately after the fight.

I was shocked by this, why in just one month since I transferred to a new division she got into a fight with the superiors and resigned? Although it does not matter anymore, this event is a definite proof that she is the one who always instigate conflicts.
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I’m not sure where you are from, but in the US corporate world, you can have meetings with your bosses boss if this happens. In fact, the two people that control your destiny the most are your boss (or senior) and the manager directly above them. While it’s wise to cultivate relationships with everyone (within reason) those two will control your trajectory the most.

My guess is her behavior was not isolated and she pissed off several people. You did the right thing by switching teams, so you didn’t have to deal with her anymore. This might seem devious, but I would have screen grabbed what she wrote to you on WhatsApp. While petty insults aren’t enough if she lets something slip that has the appearance of being illegal or is illegal, she’s toast.

Glad it worked out, usually these aren’t isolated incidents, and eventually the events will unfold like they did in your case as she broke down and quit.
 
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