Not taking revenge, turning the other cheek

GoodShepherd

GoodShepherd

Orthodox
Heritage
For the last year I have been really practicing the teaching of not avenging myself and turning the other cheek and praying for those who tried to harm me, there were 3 major incidentces that I want to share.

The one guy tried to cheat me of money multiple times and each time I caught him out and got my money back but he became quite angry and hostile with me even though he was the one stealing not me, I left him alone and prayed for the guy, forgave him and lit a candle for him at the liturgy, 10 days later he was beaten up by thugs and they stole all his money, he literally shook my hand after this event and we made peace and he even mentioned the words "you serve a great God"

2nd incident was a new neighbor who was playing loud music on a loudspeaker at 7am on a Sunday morning, he didnt close his driveway gate so I went in, there were about 8 construction workers inside, I walked past all of them quietly and slowly and didnt open my mouth once, I walked to the porch of the house and turned off the music and walked out, they shouted at me, swore at me etc but I didnt respond and neither did they harm me (I think God protected me here), they closed the gate when I left and continued playing loud music for weeks and weeks and I again prayed for the guy and never defended myself and literally a few months later they guy had a terrible car accident and has to work from home for the next 2 years and hasnt really played his music the way he did in the past, I bumped into him at the grocery store ans he also shook my hand and we made peace and we friends again.

The 3rd incident Im not sure if it was just a coincidence but another person was kind of cheating us of money and were being very unfair and demanded we pay them this unfair amount, they basically gave us a 2 year bill for a service we only used for 4 months, anyway they were very nasty about it and even came to our house once hooting and shouted at my wife when I wasnt home (because I said I wasnt paying), I then went to his place but he wasnt home only his wife, so I asked what do they want from us etc, they continued to insist that we pay them that unfair amount, so I said "ok here is the money" even though I didnt think it was fair, anyway a year later the guy died suddenly in his 40's.

Before he died we had already made peace and I had shaken his hand and it seemed like everything was ok, I didnt want the guy to die I was sad to hear it, I also prayed for his soul after he died and lit a candle for him at the liturgy.

Is this normal has anyone else experienced something similar? Was the 3rd incident maybe just a coincidence and maybe not related to anything?
 
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I've many incidents with those doing evil to me, yet I do not respond; in 99% of cases I am unable to follow up on their lives to see what happens. So I have no idea if I have any effect.

However, I have had many incidents like this with my family, and thankfully I can see what happens: I suffer their blows, and eventually my family member's lives turn around for the better, 100% better often times. Crazy transformations too, such as being hateful angry and violent towards me, and then years later becoming faithful prayerful Christians.

Sometimes people have to experience love from someone in order to know what the Love of God feels like; when we turn the other cheek, people can see the power of God in a way that makes no sense... it humbles them, softens their heart, enables them to feel shame, and has a very real chance of turning them back to God.

With your cases GoodShepherd, that these people do evil and then mysteriously die makes me think they weren't repentant, and eventually their sinful ways caught up with them. "The wages of sin are death." Thus without knowing more of the details of their lives, we cannot be sure if what happened between you and them is what eventually resulted in their terrible fates.
 
Like Samseau, I don’t have follow ups from who tried to take advantage of me.

I don’t waste time thinking or trying to get revenge. I try to not be taken advantage of. But let’s use the example of being overcharged for a job. If there is no way to dispute, I would pay. I would use that as a lesson and move on.

A more common example would be traffic. It’s common to have an idiot crossing in front of you. Instead of honking to make sure the other driver is aware, I don’t even bother. I know it wasn’t on purpose and no point in me being upset. You’re not teaching the other driver a lesson and there is nothing to gain from being upset.
 
Attacking, in a rage, someone who wronged you is beneath most thinking men.

But letting it go is also, in my opinion, cowardly. If the threat and the damage is real. I mean, if someone tricks you like in a shell game on the street for a quick bet, shame on you. Shouldn't have played. But if someone takes food from your kids' mouths, you absolutely should plan revenge. This is how reputations are made.

That phrase "revenge is a dish best served cold" is often only understood in a very shallow sense.

The real point is that, most people, if they cool off for a few days or weeks, life will take over and they will realize that "getting even" is now not so important since actual life issues came up they need to deal with. So they forget the wrong they were dealt. This is wise. Always wait to get revenge because you may realize it's not worth it.

But once you realize it's worth it, and to not do it would be cowardly, you have to plan out a Count Of Monte Cristo level of destruction of your enemy to leave him beaten and broken, with absolutely no recourse, and to get the word out that you are not a man to be trifled with.
 
TooFineAPoint said:
Attacking, in a rage, someone who wronged you is beneath most thinking men.

But letting it go is also, in my opinion, cowardly. If the threat and the damage is real. I mean, if someone tricks you like in a shell game on the street for a quick bet, shame on you. Shouldn't have played. But if someone takes food from your kids' mouths, you absolutely should plan revenge. This is how reputations are made.

That phrase "revenge is a dish best served cold" is often only understood in a very shallow sense.

The real point is that, most people, if they cool off for a few days or weeks, life will take over and they will realize that "getting even" is now not so important since actual life issues came up they need to deal with. So they forget the wrong they were dealt. This is wise. Always wait to get revenge because you may realize it's not worth it.

But once you realize it's worth it, and to not do it would be cowardly, you have to plan out a Count Of Monte Cristo level of destruction of your enemy to leave him beaten and broken, with absolutely no recourse, and to get the word out that you are not a man to be trifled with.
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I suppose this is why Christ’s teachings have been a stumbling block for so many people.

I must have my revenge and not be seen as weak or foolish in the eyes of other people.
 

Joost said:
Like Samseau, I don’t have follow ups from who tried to take advantage of me.

I don’t waste time thinking or trying to get revenge. I try to not be taken advantage of. But let’s use the example of being overcharged for a job. If there is no way to dispute, I would pay. I would use that as a lesson and move on.

A more common example would be traffic. It’s common to have an idiot crossing in front of you. Instead of honking to make sure the other driver is aware, I don’t even bother. I know it wasn’t on purpose and no point in me being upset. You’re not teaching the other driver a lesson and there is nothing to gain from being upset.
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The case where the guy was stealing from me was a restaurant manager, when I held big lunches with big groups I found extra meals ordered that the staff was obviously eating themselves and charging me and then also secretly adding the tip to the bill in fine print then asking me to still tip so double tip, 3 times in a row I caught them out, the first time I had already paid and only noticed when I got in the car but went back in and got my money back, that kind of stealing, and in large groups that amount can get quite high
 
Worldly people cannot comprehend the Christian way of life. Show someone who isn't Christian the film Man of God and they won't get it. They will not understand why Saint Nektarios didn't seek to avenge his slanderers and accusers. They will want a story that shows him triumphing over them and humiliating them.

The same goes for Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Tell a worldly person about the incident when the robbers attacked him when he was chopping wood and they will expect that he started to chop the attackers down like a badass warrior. They will not understand the events how they panned out (the Saint dropped his axe, was savagely beaten to within an inch of his life, the robbers found only old potatoes and rusks in his hut. The Saint was adamant that they perpetrators not be punished. And so, feeling terrible for what they had done, and seeing the graciousness and forgiveness of the Saint they repented of their deeds and turned to Christ)

Christ's victory over the world is invisible to worldly people. If you follow the path of the world, seek worldly revenge etc. You get worldly results. Follow Christ and you get results that are not of this world.

Saint Dimitri of Rostov says that a man who loves his enemies is a wonder worker, because it is our natural inclination to hate and despise our enemies. If we take a miracle to be something that goes against nature, then someone who can love their enemies is a miracle worker. Oftentimes we don't think of this when we think about miracles we want to see something grand, but Christ works small miracles constantly.
 
Lawrence87 said:
Worldly people cannot comprehend the Christian way of life. Show someone who isn't Christian the film Man of God and they won't get it. They will not understand why Saint Nektarios didn't seek to avenge his slanderers and accusers. They will want a story that shows him triumphing over them and humiliating them.
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I just watched "Man of God" last night! That is an incredible example of turning the other cheek. And also the importance of fortitude, patiently enduring all tribulations for the sake of our Lord and even rejoicing in them.

But I also liked how Saint Nektarios made a distinction. When the world only attacked him alone, he would patiently endure. But when they attacked God or the people he loved, including the nuns in the monastery, he would spare no effort to protect them at all costs. The world will never understand him because it is so self-centered.
 
I already see the tension in this thread between genuine forgiveness and being weak. If someone comes to your door to harm your family, you have a duty to fight them. It is not in any way pious to let them in.

But true forgiveness is very liberating, it feels good to truly forgive someone. I think of forgiveness as a cup that has to be drunk. When you were sinned against, that cup was filled. It is only natural for the person who filled that cup to have to drink it. But you cannot force that person to drink that cup. The godly thing to do is to drink that cup even though the other person was the one who filled it. This is how Jesus forgives us. And this forgiveness leads to reconciliation. True forgiveness feels like you were wronged twice, which is why it is hard to do, it almost feels "unjust."
 
For me I haven't never really had an issue with desiring revenge or taking concrete action to get back at someone who had attacked me. Even just from a purely utilitarian perspective you typically don't get any benefit from plotting revenge and many times it just digs you into a deeper hole.

My issue was always been more taking pleasure in the fall of people who I once had some sort of relationship with then ended up becoming enemies later on. It doesn't go as far as wishing any sort of physical harm or big traumatic event on them that destroys their lives. It's more of deriving pleasure from their frustrations and unhappiness in the state of their lives and seeing them fail. What makes it easier for me to succumb to this sort of mentality is that these people have a lot of traits that I usually mock and that these people are types that I typically view with contempt.

To give a concrete illustration, there's this girl I was in this social circle with who is the prototypical SJW millennial female that we make fun of all the time on here. She's a feminist, a vegan, and a lesbian who makes being LGBT a core part of her personality and identity and will never miss a moment to remind you how gay she is and how much she loves being gay and to find hidden hints of something being gay or transgender in all the media she consumes; which consists of mostly children's cartoons and other pop culture soy slop. She also supports every liberal/leftist cause in a reflexive NPC manner whether it be Bernie 2016 (and 2020), BLM, etc. She's a major stoner and just like with her being LGBT, she insists on making it a major part of her identity and spends tons of time chronicling when she's high and how she wish she was high and how she couldn't be functional (which assumes she is functional to begin with - something that is very much in doubt) without weed. And as expected from someone who possesses all these traits and interests, she's constantly depressed and has been checked into the psych ward a few times and is hopped up on sort of medication to treat the many mental ailments she claims to have been diagnosed with. Her work experience consists of a series of low-skill jobs, mostly of the waitressing variety which she has taken extended breaks from due to her unstable mental state.

I had a falling out from the social group that we were both part of so I don't have any contact with her. The reason I know all this information is because she has a public Twitter account where she regularly posts about how she's gay, depressed, high, and where she develops theories about how some hand signal used by some celebrity in a photograph must be a sign that person is secretly some sort of Marxist trans-cyborg. I have a habit of hopping on her Twitter in order to gawk and point fingers and laugh at the way her life is unfolding. I've done this with a few of the other people from the social group we were part of who have similar lifestyles and viewpoints including one guy that turned into a troon about a year or two ago. These people have had similar life outcomes as the girl I described. They are going nowhere in life and pretty much doing the same things in their late 20s that they were doing in their late teens only with more depression and anxiety since the freshness of youth is fading and they no longer have the excuse of being young and dumb. Now they are just merely dumb.

While I'm not actively working against these people in the same way someone who is after revenge is, I'm committing a similar sin by getting a kick out of watching them stumble and making themselves miserable. I'm more conventionally successful in my life and it's very easy for me to slip into a mode where I'm comparing myself to them and counting the ways I'm winning over them. The two sins I see here are me both taking joy in the suffering of another human being and being prideful in thinking of my own supposed superiority over them instead of thinking about the ways I could have ended up walking the paths they are on now. Now I do think they are reaping the harvest of the seeds they have planted and are being paid the "wages of sin" from their actions well as from their posture towards God (all of these people are anti-Christianity) but ultimately we aren't called to be the ones that dispense what someone is owed. That is to be done either from the state whom God has entrusted the sword to in the temporal life or God himself in either the temporal life or after. It is very much a weakness of my flesh and my mind to want be both the judge and executioner of these people when I'm not the one called to be either. This is one of times that I am glad I've been exposed to Faith and the teachings of Christ since if I was following my own natural mind I know I would be definitely gleeful over what is going on in their lives which would be to the detriment of my soul.
 
Wutang: That is a natural feeling, and it is unloving, even hateful, and therefore sinful, but it can be overcome: force yourself to pray for them. Praying for your enemies will force one to love them.

"Lord, I hope she can stop her drugs and turn from her deluded ways. She was brainwashed, she knows not what she does, have mercy on her."

"Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners."
 
TooFineAPoint said:
Attacking, in a rage, someone who wronged you is beneath most thinking men.

But letting it go is also, in my opinion, cowardly. If the threat and the damage is real. I mean, if someone tricks you like in a shell game on the street for a quick bet, shame on you. Shouldn't have played. But if someone takes food from your kids' mouths, you absolutely should plan revenge. This is how reputations are made.

That phrase "revenge is a dish best served cold" is often only understood in a very shallow sense.

The real point is that, most people, if they cool off for a few days or weeks, life will take over and they will realize that "getting even" is now not so important since actual life issues came up they need to deal with. So they forget the wrong they were dealt. This is wise. Always wait to get revenge because you may realize it's not worth it.

But once you realize it's worth it, and to not do it would be cowardly, you have to plan out a Count Of Monte Cristo level of destruction of your enemy to leave him beaten and broken, with absolutely no recourse, and to get the word out that you are not a man to be trifled with.
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What country or part of the world are you from, out of curiosity? I ask because revenge is a very big part of some cultures and I'm interested in this on a personal level because my wife is from one of those places. I don't want to say the specific country, but it's one of the poorer, more violent parts of Latin America. The collective effect of millions of people obsessed with taking vengeance on each other for all kinds of wrongs, real and just perceived, really makes it an unpleasant place.
 
I think @GoodShepherd is referring to the cases when God effectively carries out the revenge not where you plot and do it yourself.

Unlike some other posters in this thread I have had some inkling as to what has happened with those who have wronged me. There were a few severe and milder punishments which came their way. One possible explanation is that whatever these people do to you is probably not an isolated case, they probably have a sequence of these such events around them which eventually manages to catch up with them and either turn everyone against them or destroy their soul on the inside.
TooFineAPoint said:
But once you realize it's worth it, and to not do it would be cowardly, you have to plan out a Count Of Monte Cristo level of destruction of your enemy to leave him beaten and broken, with absolutely no recourse, and to get the word out that you are not a man to be trifled with.
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This depends on whether you are dealing with -
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
or the inverse -
Father do not forgive them for they know exactly what they are doing!

I had to upvote for you posting that revenge genre film Count Of Monte Cristo. I love that genre. Can recommend the following revenge films.

Two part film Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources. The wronging takes part in the first and revenge in the second :

Girl with the Dragon Tatoo
Daniel Craig version :
Swedish version (Män som hatar kvinnor) :

The Revenant

Interestingly all of these films are based on books.

Someone told me to watch that last one The Revenant as it contains a warning about what may happen with you if you become obsessed with carrying out revenge.
 
OP, if you chose to live among other people, you need to accept they will behave as savages, they will lie, cheat, steal, etc. This is all very well documented by various prophets in the bible as we are in the end times. In 2020 propaganda was broadcasted all over the world, in all languages, that "the social contract has been redefined".

Stuff like loud music (100% legal), excessive billing (100% legal), unless you're ready to go all the way to the death in a physical confrontation, you shouldn't even confront them for that. That behavior is perfectly acceptable in modern "society" in the new social contract. All these people who behave as you describe & end up dying, that's because people who behave like that understand they affect others, but they don't care. Why? Because they don't care whether they live or die. Their life is miserable. You may view their death as "haha! you see! in the end god punished you!" but for them their death was a reward, not a punishment. Most people are like that or they will be soon. Next time you walk on up on someone remember that.

If you have food & another person or animal is stealing that food, your food security is now threatened & you must respond for your own survival, because they will return. You'd choose the most risk free solution that guarantees your food security, which would be a lower risk defensive move & if that does not solve your food security issues, you'd incrementally move to higher risk offensive moves. Punishment, justice, revenge, etc, these are human emotions, these concepts don't exist in nature, you should forget them.
 
TooFineAPoint said:
Attacking, in a rage, someone who wronged you is beneath most thinking men.

But letting it go is also, in my opinion, cowardly. If the threat and the damage is real. I mean, if someone tricks you like in a shell game on the street for a quick bet, shame on you. Shouldn't have played. But if someone takes food from your kids' mouths, you absolutely should plan revenge. This is how reputations are made.

That phrase "revenge is a dish best served cold" is often only understood in a very shallow sense.

The real point is that, most people, if they cool off for a few days or weeks, life will take over and they will realize that "getting even" is now not so important since actual life issues came up they need to deal with. So they forget the wrong they were dealt. This is wise. Always wait to get revenge because you may realize it's not worth it.

But once you realize it's worth it, and to not do it would be cowardly, you have to plan out a Count Of Monte Cristo level of destruction of your enemy to leave him beaten and broken, with absolutely no recourse, and to get the word out that you are not a man to be trifled with.
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I can see this point of view. For reference part of a culture I come from is big on revenge. It is a question I have always struggled with. I want to pray for people who hate me, but I can never get myself to do so. If it’s something petty, I’ll let it go, but if it’s something serious, I contemplate and plan accordingly. It’s not good for me and my soul.

The struggle I have is that I’ve met people in several situations whose behavior has gone unchecked for decades. Let’s say someone is a bully or abuses others. If the abused say kicked that persons ass, they’d think twice about doing it again. There are thousands of these interactions. We hear to leave it to God, ok but we still create laws to check that behavior. If a women is a whore, her father or men in the community have failed her. This isn’t a case if revenge, but if checking human behavior.

Imagine if people took revenge on people who are actively subverting the country? They know nothing will happen to them, so they act and do whatever they want. They know nobody can touch them. Where has that led us?

I don’t have the answer, and I admit it’s because of lack of patience in waiting for God’s will.
 
Rational1 said:
I can see this point of view. For reference part of a culture I come from is big on revenge. It is a question I have always struggled with. I want to pray for people who hate me, but I can never get myself to do so. If it’s something petty, I’ll let it go, but if it’s something serious, I contemplate and plan accordingly. It’s not good for me and my soul.

The struggle I have is that I’ve met people in several situations whose behavior has gone unchecked for decades. Let’s say someone is a bully or abuses others. If the abused say kicked that persons ass, they’d think twice about doing it again. There are thousands of these interactions. We hear to leave it to God, ok but we still create laws to check that behavior. If a women is a whore, her father or men in the community have failed her. This isn’t a case if revenge, but if checking human behavior.

Imagine if people took revenge on people who are actively subverting the country? They know nothing will happen to them, so they act and do whatever they want. They know nobody can touch them. Where has that led us?

I don’t have the answer, and I admit it’s because of lack of patience in waiting for God’s will.
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There is a distinction to be made between protecting innocents on the one hand, and ego/passion-based revenge on the other.
 
stadtaffe said:
they probably have a sequence of these such events around them which eventually manages to catch up with them and either turn everyone against them or destroy their soul on the inside.
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I've come to realize that most people just cause their own problems in life. There are some exceptions and it is all very complicated with many people who are insecure and lacking family, etc. but they still will go down paths that are silly, stupid, or could be avoided.
larom said:
Punishment, justice, revenge, etc, these are human emotions, these concepts don't exist in nature, you should forget them.
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I agree. I understand why people act like pieces of dookie, but I disagree that it's because they don't fear death. It's that they want to impress their egos on others, not being able to control much of anything else in life. I don't have much time for people who can't stop themselves from being disrespectful in ways that are easy not to be (loud, music, stupidity, etc). What do I do then? Avoid them. Why would I fight with animals? At a certain point even dealing with "neighbors" is stupidity, that's why discernment is important. The man who was helped by the Samaritan was someone who needed help or mercy. The people we're talking about are intentionally annoying egos and possibly (looking to be?) enemies, and they know it. People need to remember that.
Rational1 said:
I don’t have the answer, and I admit it’s because of lack of patience in waiting for God’s will.
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This is mature, but there are conundrums everywhere, there is no doubt. A lot of the misunderstanding I see with modern people, and even Christians, are that somehow we should just take the punishment of an evil government ruling over us, with a dead idiot as prez, because for some reason we deserve it? This opens up a huge can of worms, in my view. Similarly with women, are we to just say, yeah, go forsook us for this 20-30 year period, ehh, so what? I'm not sinless, of course, and human societies sadly are subject to leadership woes or lack thereof, but we've all talked about how lame it can be on the forums when others suggest you should just take the bad beat and fight alongside them (and their families, since they were chosen by God to have them, lol) to preserve a country or society that did little for you on those levels.
 
scary_robot_music said:
What country or part of the world are you from, out of curiosity? I ask because revenge is a very big part of some cultures and I'm interested in this on a personal level because my wife is from one of those places. I don't want to say the specific country, but it's one of the poorer, more violent parts of Latin America. The collective effect of millions of people obsessed with taking vengeance on each other for all kinds of wrongs, real and just perceived, really makes it an unpleasant place.
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I'm from Canada and I'm of European descent.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek because obviously running around knifing everyone who looked at you funny is retarded.

GodfatherPartTwo got what I was saying, and Rodion did not.

Having a gate, locking your door, and having some tools of self defence in your house would not make one "worried about looking weak or foolish", they would make one prudent. But that is about white hot self defence.

In cases of cold revenge, if someone SAYS they are going to come at you, and they start making moves to come at you (again, I don't mean petty insults, I mean destroying your business, making false accusations that would destroy your reputation, harming or manipulating your loved ones, posing a tacit threat to your health or property), then you'd better make planned and logical moves to put them out of commission. This doesn't mean killing them. And usually it would be to your benefit if it is known that you exacted your revenge to dissuade other potential conflicts in the future.

What I am discussing is way easier said than done.

But what IS easy is not having sex when women are repulsed by you and not engaging in violence when you pose absolutely no danger to anyone.

To lighten the mood, here is something in line with what I am talking about:

 
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