Natty or Not (Cultural Critique Blog)

1. "Men don't have a wall, or if they do, it's like 50 or later. Look at X 60-year-old celebrity who just had a kid with a 25-year-old. Women want a high value male with resources, and resources take time to accumulate."

Short response:
  • Every human has a wall, it's just that women peak earlier and quicker relative to men. Men aged 35+ are considered "old" to the most attractive women -- i.e., women in their 20s, especially 25 and under.
  • Aside from particularly poor countries, the most common age gap appears to sit between 1-4 years. The acceptability of the gap is usually decided by the woman, because women are usually the ones who have the most power over selection. Men would go younger if they could.
  • Health is central to every aspect of functioning -- including dating and relationships -- and for the vast majority of men, they're going to have more energy, health, physical freedom etc in their 20s vs their 30s, in their 30s vs their 40s, etc. Men's sperm also degrades over time, especially when exposed to modern chemicals, pollution etc.
  • Last, relying on outliers to make a general point is not very persuasive. What mega-rich or famous men get away with is irrelevant to the other 99.9%.
Personal reflection: I consider me and my friends in their 30s and 40s to be still growing and yet to have peaked in terms of overall contributions to society, intellectual might, useful wisdom, etc. We all take good care of bodies, yet none of us have the health and energy as before. That alone makes keeping up with 20-somethings considerably harder, even if we wanted to.
In wealthy societies men's value is primarily based on their looks due to societal decadence and the fact that women do not need men as much. The exception to that is men who are super wealthy (10 million+ net worth) or are famous or at least have niche high social status (well known local DJ, social media influencer with 100,000+ followers, etc). Nobody is arguing against this. Yes of course in any western country a handsome 23 year old man with 6 pack abs has a much better chance with young women in their prime than a typical 35 or 40 year old man even if the 35 year old has $1 or $2 million dollars in net worth.

The important part is that in non-wealthy countries women place less emphasis on how the man looks plus overall wealth levels are lower so a low tier millionaire with $1 or $2 million in net worth is an important man in those countries. Yes even in poor countries being a handsome man is seen as a plus plus its not the number one priority for women. The priority order gets shifted. Thus you will see in many Asian countries, African countries, Latin American countries, and some poorer countries in Europe (Moldova, Romania, etc) that a 35 year old man with a $1 million net worth has a more options when it comes to young women aged 18 - 25 than an early 20s man who is better looking.

And the 1 - 4 year age gap in most countries is based on average men. In the poorer/non western countries any man in his 30s and 40s who has $1 million dollars net worth (an obtainable amount for men that age who work hard, invest wisely and have a bit of luck) provided he is in reasonable shape and has some game has ample access to women aged 18 - 25. You can see this in many latin american countries, African countries, asian countries, certain Slavic countries, etc men who are financially doing well are often dating women 10 - 20 years younger than them.

For example I know a Colombian guy in Australia who had been living in Australia for 10 years and had permanently residency here. He was in his 40s. He went back to Colombia to find a girl to marry and brought her back to Australia. The woman he married was a 27 year old Venezuelan woman. I knew him before he got married and after. Last time I had seen him he had been married a year and he seemed very happy. I saw a photo of his wife. She was slightly above average looking by western standards but not a stunner by any means. The guy wasn't rich though but he had a decent paying job. And the guy was below average looking. So you don't need to be a celebrity or multi-millionaire to marry a significantly younger girl as long as you aren't trying to meet the girl in a western country.

Even in Colombia when I visited most women were dating men of a similar age but that was because most guys didn't have money and if they had a choice between a broke guy their own age and a broke older guy then they would prefer the broke guy their own age and hence the average age gap was not that large. However most Colombian girls I had met would rather date a guy 10 - 20 years older who has money than a broke guy their own age. But since the guys with money are rare they don't show up in the aggregation of statistics hence the average age gap is small. This is the key point you seem to be missing.
 
sci-fi film GIF




Did you create that table? Nice work regardless.

These posts are real, red pill takes that involve a lot of inter-related complex ideas. The median age of CIK members seems to be around 35-45 so this post won't be easy to swallow for men who are older and single. Still, at any age, it's important for people to challenge idealised fantasies that won't actually help themselves or others to achieve their goals.

On multiple occasions on RVF, and to this day on CIK, I have read about the following three ideas. All of these notions have some truth and value to them, but are fundamentally flawed.

Note.
> A. I am challenging specific theories, and I am not judging members here for their situations or personal decisions.
> B. Above all, I want all members to remember that general trends are just that - general, and don't necessarily constrain your individual potential. As individuals we have the power to break through broader trends of the ordinary, if we are willing to be extraordinary.




1. "Men don't have a wall, or if they do, it's like 50 or later. Look at X 60-year-old celebrity who just had a kid with a 25-year-old. Women want a high value male with resources, and resources take time to accumulate."

Short response:
  • Every human has a wall, it's just that women peak earlier and quicker relative to men. Men aged 35+ are considered "old" to the most attractive women -- i.e., women in their 20s, especially 25 and under.
  • Aside from particularly poor countries, the most common age gap appears to sit between 1-4 years. The acceptability of the gap is usually decided by the woman, because women are usually the ones who have the most power over selection. Men would go younger if they could.
  • Health is central to every aspect of functioning -- including dating and relationships -- and for the vast majority of men, they're going to have more energy, health, physical freedom etc in their 20s vs their 30s, in their 30s vs their 40s, etc. Men's sperm also degrades over time, especially when exposed to modern chemicals, pollution etc.
  • Last, relying on outliers to make a general point is not very persuasive. What mega-rich or famous men get away with is irrelevant to the other 99.9%.
Personal reflection: I consider me and my friends in their 30s and 40s to be still growing and yet to have peaked in terms of overall contributions to society, intellectual might, useful wisdom, etc. We all take good care of bodies, yet none of us have the health and energy as before. That alone makes keeping up with 20-somethings considerably harder, even if we wanted to.

Further discussion:

[Quote snipped]


link:https://christisking.cc/threads/marriage-virgins-vs-non-virgins.850/page-3#post-38821

Also:

Link:https://christisking.cc/threads/older-men-younger-women.971/page-4#post-85312




2. "Western women are ruined so I'm going to fixate on stacking cash and leave the country when I get X amount of money. Then I'll move overseas to a poorer country where I'll have heaps of money and higher status and that'll solve any problems relating to women."

Short response:
  • This approach may reduce the impact of some problems. Yet it may also increase the impact of other problems or introduce new problems that didn't exist before.
  • Notably, fixating on money at the expense of self-reflection and social skills is a recipe for disaster in the long haul. You can buy attention and short-term investment, but not sustainable respect and attraction.
  • Large age gaps can create their own problems, such as differences in lifestyle values.
  • Then there's the issues of living in another country, if the man wants kids, etc. Trade-offs are inescapable. Try not to fixate on imagining a life without problems to solve. Changing environments can make a big difference to someone's quality of life; however, a stubborn mindset of cynicism and negativity won't be solved by anything external.
Personal reflection: a lot of my friends ended up with women who were either not Anglo or typically Aussie, so I strongly empathise with this desire to escape.

The bigger issue with this money-based strategy is that:
(a) it's a naive, simplistic, normie approach that ignores deeper truths about female attraction and emotional engagement, and
(b) it traps men in a cycle of working till exhaustion and even death, just to provide a lifestyle good enough to keep their woman from leaving.

F that. IMO it's better to be single than be with a woman who doesn't respect you and only got with you and stays with you because of your resource provision. Yet men can also dig their own early graves by leading with money. "I bought a lambo to get more girls. Now I got more girls, cool. But now they want more things... ugh, why do all women just want money!?" That's an own goal my dude. 🤦‍♂️

Further discussion:

Link:https://christisking.cc/threads/is-...ter-online-dating-apps.1014/page-4#post-60793




3. "Putting effort into your youthful appearance is gay. Skincare is for women and homos. Putting too much time and energy into attracting women anyway screams desperation. You're scared of a few wrinkles and grey hairs? LOL. Weak."

Short response:
  • Improving your overall health is likely to have indirect effects on your appearance and vitality.
  • The older the man is perceived to be, the more likely that younger women will treat him as a money / resource extraction device.
  • So, reducing the perceived age gap is in the best interest of the man.
What he sees vs what she sees:
View attachment 21397

Personal reflection: my wife and mother of my children is 10+ years younger than me, and my prior long-term girlfriend was around 15 years younger. One of the core reasons why these relationships ever got off the ground was because -- from the very beginning -- they did not perceive that our age difference was particularly large. If they knew about the precise age gap from the start, it is likely that neither relationship would have happened at all.

Further discussion:

Link:https://christisking.cc/threads/sunscreen-good-or-bad.817/page-3#post-36875

Also:

Link:https://christisking.cc/threads/marriage-virgins-vs-non-virgins.850/page-3#post-38821

Excellent overall post.

Anyway, the way I look at it is: look at the women you're trying to get. Find out what they're attracted to. (If you come to the conclusion that they're only attracted to drugs and crime, then you're not looking for the right girls)

Then, focus on working on those traits. It will usually be a combination of looks (physique, style, hygiene), charisma/humor and, of course, money. Historically, in times of peace, women have always been attracted to those things. But do we really need NATO and Russia to engage in nuclear warfare just so that we can avoid having to go to the gym or learning how to be confident around women?

That said, we have the gift of being Christian men. Thus, we should be attracted to good women who generally don't value sinful traits in men.

Here's just a short anecdote that made me understand that things were similar decades ago. When my dad was terminally ill and had a stroke he was rushed to the hospital. A young nurse performed some routine checks to evaluate his mental faculties. The tense atmosphere was palpable, another nurse was in the room too, while a random doctor came in to pick something up.

The nurse then asked my dad to focus on her face. After a quick look at her his response was "Yes, not bad.". At once all the tension vanished and was replaced by smiles and laughter. Even the doctor couldn't hold back. I immediately understood how my dad was able to get and keep a 15 year younger wife decades ago. Even at his weakest point with his brain not being fully functional he was still able to read the room.

Some will say "oh, but that's game". No, it's just average 1970s level male social intelligence and we need to learn it, adapt it to current laws and then apply it accordingly and in line with our values. As I said, barring some kind of nuclear war, no woman is coming to save us.
 
Did you create that table? Nice work regardless.
It's AI generated. I'm actually surprised how well it catches on to these more subtle social aspects.

Sometimes you have to watch out for explicit left-wing programming in the AI. So phrase your questions the right way. For example, I uploaded ChatGPT a picture of myself and asked it to guess my ethnicity. It said that's racist and refused my request. So I instead asked it what country my appearance would stereotypically be associated with, and it guessed correctly.
 
True. It's also interesting how they think the interest they get from young adults (18-23) is proof that they're still desirable. They fail to realise those boys simply want to live out some old teacher or friend's mom fantasy.
Good point. They take advantage of walking boners to justify their existence, in any way possible.
Last, relying on outliers to make a general point is not very persuasive. What mega-rich or famous men get away with is irrelevant to the other 99.9%.
Yes and no. The point is that objective things don't really matter to women, so big picture = looks don't either. Of course, there is going to be a threshold. But this is largely irrelevant to a passive sexual partner (female) when her real desire is for protection and provision.
That alone makes keeping up with 20-somethings considerably harder, even if we wanted to.
Not when they don't have much now and are staring at a future that is an abyss. Of course, women would have to realize this, and they aren't very good at that, or don't care about the future, mostly, to their disadvantage.
The bigger issue with this money-based strategy is that:
(a) it's a naive, simplistic, normie approach that ignores deeper truths about female attraction and emotional engagement, and
(b) it traps men in a cycle of working till exhaustion and even death, just to provide a lifestyle good enough to keep their woman from leaving.
I think the way to look at money is the freedom it gives you. FIRST, to be around the place where women are actually young and behave, and NEXT, to be able to do some thing most others can't do in that location. That separates you from the rest, of course. Simping is never good, as anyone around here will tell you.
In wealthy societies men's value is primarily based on their looks due to societal decadence and the fact that women do not need men as much.
Yes, confirming the above points. As far as women are concerned society solved for their top 3-4 concerns, so they can just seek good looks in a man, without "worrying". Of course, that ends up to be awful for them since they are delusional when it comes to their own true SMV. What's worse is that it simultaneously made their average bad, while making the male average way higher, and thus leading to our current collapse in pairing up.
And the 1 - 4 year age gap in most countries is based on average men. In the poorer/non western countries any man in his 30s and 40s who has $1 million dollars net worth (an obtainable amount for men that age who work hard, invest wisely and have a bit of luck) provided he is in reasonable shape and has some game has ample access to women aged 18 - 25. You can see this in many latin american countries, African countries, asian countries, certain Slavic countries, etc men who are financially doing well are often dating women 10 - 20 years younger than them.
Great points.
Thus, we should be attracted to good women who generally don't value sinful traits in men.
I agree. Sadly, I don't run across many women who are both young and attractive that attend church. If I did, the cultural taboo would [generally] disallow the match, whereas that isn't the case in other countries.
 
Maybe theoretically that could be true for somebody who is consistently highly active their whole life in practice for most couch potato normie men their muscle mass peaks in their mid to late 20s and declines thereafter due to lifestyle changes and decline in physical activity.

I remember reading just that, but can't find the article. It matched my life observations, farmers and dudes in general usually look the bulkiest and biggest around 45, even when fat, they must have more muscle than at 20 or 30.

chapel-hill-north-carolina-defensive-coordinator-steve-belichick-of-the-north-carolina-tar.jpg

Stephen_Belichick_%28cropped%29.jpg

I found this:

In men, muscle mass reached a peak at 40–49 years. Men 50–59 years still had more muscle mass than those 18–29 years, although values were only slightly greater (1.1%). Muscle mass started to decline at the sixty decade of life, with older men 60–69 displaying 4.0% less muscle mass

 
I remember reading just that, but can't find the article. It matched my life observations, farmers and dudes in general usually look the bulkiest and biggest around 45, even when fat, they must have more muscle than at 20 or 30.

chapel-hill-north-carolina-defensive-coordinator-steve-belichick-of-the-north-carolina-tar.jpg

Stephen_Belichick_%28cropped%29.jpg

I found this:

In men, muscle mass reached a peak at 40–49 years. Men 50–59 years still had more muscle mass than those 18–29 years, although values were only slightly greater (1.1%). Muscle mass started to decline at the sixty decade of life, with older men 60–69 displaying 4.0% less muscle mass


While what your saying is true, Australia Sucks is right in saying atrophy leads to quick loss of muscle mass. But that's your own responsibility as a man to simply stay active.

The only thing you'll lose despite regular training is athletic explosiveness and max outputs, like your vertical jump and sprint speed, that will inevitably decline.
 
While what your saying is true, Australia Sucks is right in saying atrophy leads to quick loss of muscle mass. But that's your own responsibility as a man to simply stay active.

The only thing you'll lose despite regular training is athletic explosiveness and max outputs, like your vertical jump and sprint speed, that will inevitably decline.
Flexibility also goes down a lot for most men as they age. I am certainly stiffer than I was 15 years ago.
 
asked it what country my appearance would stereotypically be associated with, and it guessed correctly.

Did you try asking it to guess the age?

The only thing you'll lose despite regular training is athletic explosiveness and max outputs, like your vertical jump and sprint speed, that will inevitably decline.

Yes. There aren't that many good soccer players over 30, performance seems to plateau around 25, or football players above 30, some men continue to play baseball in their 40's. Some get caught using prohibited PE drugs. My general impression, but growing up, nobody in my family was particularly into circuses.

I agree. Sadly, I don't run across many women who are both young and attractive that attend church. If I did, the cultural taboo would [generally] disallow the match, whereas that isn't the case in other countries.

It is a rare sight. Shortly Before covid during the summer, I saw two very nice looking girls in church, approx late HS or college age, apparently sisters. I'm a little younger than Roosh. Both equally attractive but of different physiques and hair color- you'd be wishing you could choose both. After mass in the parking lot they were walking ahead of me, in mini skirts, so I checked the legs out, without staring, just glanced briefly but some old hag in her eighties walking beside me noticed, and gave me a very direct angry stare, yeah you old witch (forgive me Lord) I thought to myself, you're only beautiful once. Of course I wouldn't care the slightest what other people may think if a girl like one of those was interested.

I think this part, and I'm guilty of not stretching, is what ends up bringing out intermittent pains that seem quite random at joints and involving odd muscles.

Same here. I've heard from one guy in his 50's stretching goes a long way.


I did some more searching with no luck but found some other interesting info.


The good news it's never too late to start building muscle, even if you're in your 70s or
even 80s, using diet and exercise. It becomes more difficult to add muscle with
advancing age, yes, but it's far from impossible. To prove it is possible, I'm 67, and over
the past year, I've put on 25 pounds of muscle mass and now weigh over 200 pounds.




Once you reach your 40s, you may lose about 1% of muscle mass per year, which
corresponds to a 1% to 3% drop in strength




In young men, the average testosterone level is about 550 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dl)

Muscle size and strength does not become adversely affected until testosterone levels drop below 200 ng/dl, which has previously been considered extremely low



Haven't been reading the site in years, not even headlines or article titles, but a lot of actionable things got stuck in my head.
 
Did you try asking it to guess the age?
Yes, it also guessed correctly.
It is a rare sight. Shortly Before covid during the summer, I saw two very nice looking girls in church, approx late HS or college age, apparently sisters. I'm a little younger than Roosh. Both equally attractive but of different physiques and hair color- you'd be wishing you could choose both. After mass in the parking lot they were walking ahead of me, in mini skirts, so I checked the legs out, without staring, just glanced briefly but some old hag in her eighties walking beside me noticed, and gave me a very direct angry stare, yeah you old witch (forgive me Lord) I thought to myself, you're only beautiful once. Of course I wouldn't care the slightest what other people may think if a girl like one of those was interested.
Brother, I don't blame you for glancing, but if they are wearing mini skirts to church, I dare say these girls would not be very good for your soul. Church is the one place men can go where we should be able to reasonably expect not to be tempted.
 
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