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Monarchy vs. Democracy: Are Both Obsolete?

Cynllo

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Like many, I have gone down the rabbit hole of interest in monarchy. But a recent though has place a large query on this concept of governance.

Every monarchy in Europe was subverted. This is often stated on the forum. And I suspect every governing monarchy in the world has been subverted. I believe the Arab states have video files dangling over their heads, which make them take positions that are grossly unpopular with their citizens.

I don't think there is any reason to believe a simple mortal monarch with some land holding and liquid assets could resist subversion. In this age it is difficult to see how outsiders could remain less powerful than a monarch.

Monarchies were all usurped. Democracies are all failing.

The planned model for us to live in when democracies fails is - technocracy.

It seems the only feasible alternative is something of the same - the Christian tech CEO.
 
Monarchy is to government what the gold standard is to money.

Meaning, I'm not really tied to GOLD, per se. But I am an advocate of sound money, and historically, gold is THE sound money. Gold may feel a bit anachronistic, as today many people have never even seen or held it, and it IS indeed just a "weird yellow metal" to them. We could use something like oil as a more modern substitute for the ancient yellow metal, but the principle is the same. Fixed resources are difficult to steal.

Likewise, having a monarch sit on a throne and "rule" over you can seem anachronistic because kings evoke the image of fairy tales, and knights and the medieval era. But no superior form of government has been tried, and that is the last example of good government.

This is why I define myself negatively as an anti-capitalist, anti-democracy, and anti-Keynesian. Because I'm not necessarily insisting on using gold as money, or a king to rule over me. But those are the best systems we have yet devised.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill's incorrect observation: Monarchy may not be perfect but it's better than every other form of government.

Anyway, I guess there's no monarchy thread here yet, but on the old forum and others, there are some good refutations of the above critiques of monarchy. To put it simply, a monarch was much more than a "simple mortal" and a lot went in to ensuring that the king would not fall to many of the temptations of politicians and other common men.

A Christian CEO is basically what the Holy Roman Emperor was, which was not all that different from the monarchal kingdoms, all who were God's representative to Man, and carried the sacred duty of protecting and guiding His children under His authority.

In the long run, some type of world government is probably inevitable. Perhaps under an AI system. But we are a long way from that and as long as man is going to rule other men, electing politicians is the worst system of all, and the most conducive to corruption, particularly under a legal system that has literally ruled that money = speech.
 
Monarchs have always been very poor. Read a history of England, or France, Russia, or Spain. Read the Old Testament! Kings have a very poor record! Of course democracy has a horrible record too.

You really can't get away from the cycle of civilization. Hard times make good men, and all that. When a young civilization is ascendant, every trend is good. When an old civilization is in decline, all forms of government are corrupt and destructive.

At this point, the whole world is tangled up in the train wreck of western civilization. Until the tumbling rail cars come to a rest, nothing can make things better. That is, nothing except for God, creating good out of individual circumstances, in spite of everything. All things work together for good to them who love the Lord.
 
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Monarchs have always been very poor. Read a history of England, or France, Russia, or Spain. Read the Old Testament! Kings have a very poor record! Of course democracy has a horrible record too.

You really can't get away from the cycle of civilization. Hard times make good men, and all that. When a young civilization is ascendant, every trend is good. When an old civilization is in decline, all forms of government are corrupt and destructive.

At this point, the whole world is tangled up in the train wreck of western civilization. Until the tumbling rail cars come to a rest, nothing can make things better. That is, nothing except for God, creating good out of individual circumstances, in spite of everything. All things work together for good to them who love the Lord.
I question if there is even any form of government possible that won't be eventually corrupted in a fallen world. Everything that has been tried so far throughout human history has lead to disaster in one form or another. We need to find the best of the worst essentially.

Most likely that would be some sort of fusion system, taking the idea of monarchy and mixing it with the best of republican values such as the Bill of Rights, habeus corpus, etc. Eliminate an elected executive official and replace him with the monarch. Eliminate the elected legislators and mix in some sort of elite Christian theocratic council to counterbalance the monarch. Then add in some elements of direct democracy like the referendums in Switzerland, but limit voting to Christian men in good standing who are net taxpayers and can demonstrate adequate literacy and numeracy. The US Constitution had a great idea in having a system of checks and balances, but the problem is elected officials will always be corrupted.

Which of the two makes the trains run on time?
Well Switzerland is the most democratic country in the world and has some of the most punctual trains. But I'm talking about real democracy where they vote on issues directly, not the fake republican democracy we have with leaders bought by special interests groups. In Switzerland, the people actually voted to restrict mass immigration years ago, unlike practically any other Western country.
 
I think no matter what you will always have some form of elite in a society. This includes democratic governments that champion egalitarianism where everyone is supposedly equal and supposedly has a voice. Things such as having a Ivy League university degree, being award certain prestigious fellowships and scholarships or having a company like McKinsey on your resume function in the same way that titles of nobility did in the past. Holding estates was something that nobles of the the past that allowed them to possess the power they did. Entities like BlackRock pretty much are estate holders and make their wealth from it in the same way some medieval duke would collect tax money from his estates. The question isn't whether you'll have elites or not but what sort of elites you will have. That said, I'm not sure how being ruled over Viscount William Gates the Third is really any better then ruled over by CEO Bill Gates. I'd like to see some of the old content over how a monarchy does a better job with selecting for elites.
 
I don't know much about monarchies, but I know The American founders devised a good Democratic-Republic that served its Constitution for at least a good 70 years. They couldn't have forseen how the Industrial Revolution and the rise of consumerism, big business, and new media would corrupt Western culture and create new subversive power structures.

Any discussion of the best government system must address where the true power lies in today's world. If we could create a new government today it would have to look different than the 1787 version.
 
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It's just the same dynamic taking on different forms. From tribal leaders to feudalism, monarchy, empires, communist-commissars etc. There will always be a dominant group, and that's down to genetics and nothing else. You can't change that no matter what! So if there's a Government of the people, then it's because those with the dominant genes first attain power and only then decide to let people have a say in things. That's the way it works. Elon Musk is doing that to some extent right now.

What we really need is a form of direct democracy, (like with the X voting) so that we can vote in individual political matters and not for people. Right now you elect a person and from there the lobby groups take over. We need to be able to vote regularly on individual matters. Maybe that could be a good way of using the technology that is currently being used to subjugate us. Voting on things like "more money for Ukraine" via your smart-phone using finger print verification etc. It's prone to cheating yes, but they cheat in elections anyway...
 
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The question isn't whether you'll have elites or not but what sort of elites you will have.
Bingo.
Under capitalism, your "elite" class just means "someone who holds capital."
That was bad enough when we had sound money, as it generally attracted the greedy robber baron types.
But in a fiat system where capital is created at will, it is an inversion of the natural process of elites, where predatory rootless cosmopolitans, who have no connection to the people in society, no allegiance to them, no common religion, lifestyle, or even friendship with them, are now "elites."
That said, I'm not sure how being ruled over Viscount William Gates the Third is really any better then ruled over by CEO Bill Gates.
What we are seeing now is the tail end of the "old money" elites of the sound money capitalist system.
What we will see next is the "new money" types, which, unlike the traditional elites, lack the education, culture, family roots, community respect, and nobless oblige attitude.

Think people like Sam Bankman Fried, Mark Zuckerberg, Andrew Tate.
These types of people have no family wealth, so they look to greedily take money wherever they can, no matter the ethical case. They will also heavily cooperate with government, like how the Deep State has an open door at Facebook, and Zuckerberg frequently visits federal police offices in DC (in fact, many of these people, like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, were synthetically created *by* government itself.

They have no ties to the community, so they will do things like drug millions of people (Sackler family with opiods). They have no religion, (really most of them are atheist Jews), so they are not bounds by the historical mores or restraints of western civilization.

They lack the traditional liberal arts education, so they lack judgment, historical context, and wisdom, and will easily be swayed by new ideas (think Elon Musk and trannyism).

Unlike past elites (think Ford, Carnegie, etc.) they feel little need to help others. They believe in the libertarian model of greed capitalism, and rarely find a need to help others.
I'd like to see some of the old content over how a monarchy does a better job with selecting for elites.
Hopefully others can chime in here, but briefly: How were European Monarchs groomed? For one there was a rigorous education, training, and preparation plan that lasted years or decades. Monarchs would fully learn the history of their country, learn about the different peoples in the different regions in their nation, their customs, languages, and beliefs, and heavily relied on a group of advisors in making decisions.

As they ruled for life, they had low time preference, and would generally make decisions with their grandchildren in mind.

Since they were independently wealthy, bribes or donations from outside groups meant nothing--they lived in a castle with servants and had every need cared for. Those who came to the monarch with a suggestion that was not in the best interest of the nation, or came from a place of greed were judged harshly (if not punished).

Monarchs are given the solemn moral duty as God's representative on earth, and a monarch is held personally responsible for actions which endanger the souls of his people. So, a king, for example, who allowed pornography or divorce in his kingdom, knowing it would mean damnation for those who fell to these vices, would be held directly responsible by God and were therefore utterly opposed to degeneracy.

There's much more but the short answer is: A bunch of wise men thought a lot about this issue and refined it over decades or centuries. Monarchs are men, and men are fallible, so of course there are times when they fell short.

I am a big fan of the BBC series The Crown. One of the best episodes of television I've seen recently looks deeply at Prince Philip and his faith. The entire series gives an example of the cultural education QE2 receives in preparing her to rule over her nation. Does she make mistakes? Of course. She greatly influences events in South Africa that led to the end of white rule there, which has been a disaster for all involved. But compare that to the major blunders of democracy, or the millions of innocents who have been murdered by the GAE in my lifetime.

Here are a few quotes on the Crown episode in question, which centers around the doubt Prince Philip is feeling about his faith, and his infatuation with the US (((moon landing))) astronauts whom he worships, until he meets them and finds them boring and stupid:



It is one of the most insightful explorations of faith I’ve ever seen on TV. In 56 minutes, the episode manages to show both why religious belief is easily sidelined in a secular age, and why—in spite of everything—people struggle to fully abandon it.

Prince Philip did not expect to meet God while watching the 1969 moon landing. But that’s how the BBC broadcaster frames it as the royal family gathers around their television in the “Moondust” episode of The Crown:

The entire series is a fantastic historical education, with excellent attention to detail, and often touches on faith. I found myself reading about many events over the past 100 years that I was unaware of until the series featured them. I don't want to spoil the episode too much, but here's an early clip:

 
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Neither. Oligarchy is the way to go. The oldest and least corrupted institution on Earth is the Orthodox Church. It was instituted as an oligarchy by the King, Jesus, amongst his disciples that none of them would be greater than the others, and in fact the least would be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.

This system never succumbed from within, it has only sufferer due to attacks from without. Nothing is as resistant as oligarchy, but good luck getting oligarch's together who don't try to murder each other and take power. Even the history of the Church proves this is no small feat, as the Pope eventually rebelled against the rest of the Church to become Monarch of his section of the Church, which has caused nothing but problems for them, but the Orthodox Oligarchy model remains unchanged and healthy to this day.

So Oligarchy is unquestionably the best form of government, if you can keep it.
 
This thread makes me want to read and watch Dune again. Frank Herbert knew.

For some reason, it is easier to pull the tigger against a president than a king.

When Lincoln and JFK were assassinated, it was business as usual. When Cromwell, Robespierre and the Bolsheviks executed their kings, it changed the course of history. Even the assassination of a mere Arch-Duke in Serbia helped to start WW1.
 
Neither. Oligarchy is the way to go. The oldest and least corrupted institution on Earth is the Orthodox Church. It was instituted as an oligarchy by the King, Jesus, amongst his disciples that none of them would be greater than the others, and in fact the least would be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.

This system never succumbed from within, it has only sufferer due to attacks from without. Nothing is as resistant as oligarchy, but good luck getting oligarch's together who don't try to murder each other and take power. Even the history of the Church proves this is no small feat, as the Pope eventually rebelled against the rest of the Church to become Monarch of his section of the Church, which has caused nothing but problems for them, but the Orthodox Oligarchy model remains unchanged and healthy to this day.

So Oligarchy is unquestionably the best form of government, if you can keep it.
Well the Church is headed by our Lord Jesus Christ and has the grace of the Holy Spirit. He keeps us going strong as without Him we are nothing but fallen creatures. No such benefit is conferred to the institutions headed by men.

If the Church were purely the work of men, it would have fallen completely a long time ago. As you say we barely managed to survive as it is at times, nearly being overwhelmed by various heresies like Arianism or Nestorianism. How much harder is it then, for a government run by men to stay pure and uncorrupted?
 
This thread makes me want to read and watch Dune again. Frank Herbert knew.

For some reason, it is easier to pull the tigger against a president than a king.

When Lincoln and JFK were assassinated, it was business as usual. When Cromwell, Robespierre and the Bolsheviks executed their kings, it changed the course of history. Even the assassination of a mere Arch-Duke in Serbia helped to start WW1.
It's so ridiculous that people cannot see this. I refer to the JFK assassination as America's coup, as did many from that time, and it is generally referred to that way in many circles today. I was with a group of friends who had never heard this term before, and didn't know what event I was referring to. I said "You've never heard 1963 referred to as an American coup?" Nope. (These are all highly educated libtards)

When they further seemed confused, I said wow that must be the first assassination of a head of state in history that didn't result in an overthrow of government. It's just so obvious isn't it? That when your leader is assassinated your government has been changed?

The only difference is today the president is not the leader, so nothing really would change, nor would there be any reason to harm a president for political ends--it would accomplish nothing.
 
I was thinking about how there is indeed countries in the world today that still have monarchies and noble families - namely the Arab countries. However, there does seem to be tons of decadence and corruption among the royalty in those nations. I think this isn't the case with the actual monarchs/sheiks themselves. I heard apparently the head of Dubai is quite competent and popular among his subjects to the point where he walks around in public by himself without bodyguards. But then again you also hear these stories about various Arab princes and princesses getting up to no good such as guys the bring over the 'Dubai port a potties" or some princess throwing a fit and beating up servant or the various drug filled orgies they partake in.
 
However, there does seem to be tons of decadence and corruption among the royalty in those nations.
Fixed it for you.

Yeah, the Dubai portapotty thing is mostly because the House of Saud is a fake royal family.
They don't have just one monarch, they have about 15,000 princes, who of course are nothing but ugly rich people, lacking all the refinements of European Christian Primogeniture Consanguine Monarchy. And the modern House of Saud only exists because they were installed by the Anglo-US forces with heavy Jewish influence in 1945 (not suspicious at all).

Princess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdul Aziz, one of Ibn Saud's granddaughters, once said they had "15,000 royals." Author of Succession in Saudi Arabia Joseph Kechichian pegs the number of princes to be around 12,000 to 15,000
 
Well the Church is headed by our Lord Jesus Christ and has the grace of the Holy Spirit. He keeps us going strong as without Him we are nothing but fallen creatures. No such benefit is conferred to the institutions headed by men.

If the Church were purely the work of men, it would have fallen completely a long time ago. As you say we barely managed to survive as it is at times, nearly being overwhelmed by various heresies like Arianism or Nestorianism. How much harder is it then, for a government run by men to stay pure and uncorrupted?

But you just proved the point - if Jesus knows better than any of us, and he instituted an Oligarchical model for God's Church, then why wouldn't we be copying it in everything else we do? Anything less than a Christian model is 100% doomed to fail.

Even if we copy Christ, as you point out, the odds are success are low since Christ is only directly administering his Church. But that doesn't change the point that a male-only Oligarchy is what Christ chose to rule God's Church, which is the hardest proof there is in favor of Oligarchy.

Monarchy's are a joke, a symptom of mankind's greed, and Democracy are always fake and just a matter of time before they are subverted. Conversely subverting an oligarchy is exceptionally difficult by comparison. Won't be perfect - just the best out of bad options.
 
The best-run governments and best leaders in modern times, like Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, Putin or even Xi are quasi monarchs of their countries. The only aspect diverging from monarchy is that there is no hereditary aspect to their rule.

The main thing these rulers have is that
-they genuinely care about their people, and strive to preserve their nations and national interest.
-while they are not officially tied to the church or native official religion, they work in harmony with it and protect it against neoliberalism and foreign influence.

This kind of rule is called a timocracy, defined as the rule by heads of state who are driven by a sense of national duty and honor. Note that this definition has been corrupted in modern times and conflated with plutocracy, which is the rule by the rich. Rulers under a timocracy draw their mandates by abiding by these values of personal honor and national interest. This mandate is in accordance with the state religion, thus becoming a mandate from heaven.

Plato's Republic is an excellent read on this subject, he defines the "democratic man" as an average citizen-plebe that is driven by his impulses and is thus easy to manipulate through bread and circus. His work has definitely stood the test of time.

“Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without.”

In other words, we either govern ourselves (especially our passions) or someone will govern us.
 
Autocracy / monarchy / timocracy for the win

Recently, Andrew Anglin made the point, when reflecting on the 30% approval rating of Joe Biden, and 6% approval rating of the most powerful Republican, Mitch McConnell, that there is no dictator in the world with a single digit approval rating.

Dictators / autocrats, unlike those "elected" in a "vote" are responsible to the will of the people, and an autocrat with a 6% approval rating simply cannot exist. Even in more blended systems like in England, there would be a referendum on leadership and the guy would be replaced with someone better, but here we are stuck with people less popular than eating insects (that polls at 18% by the way).

Even western sources, which you know are lying, will claim that people like Putin have a 70 or 80% approval rating, so you know it's much higher than that.

Beyond the ineffectiveness of the leaders we get in a democracy, I just can't stand all the time, energy, and efforts that people invest in these fake "elections." We're talking collectively of billions of hours and billions of dollars of money, all to change nothing, every 4 years. And all the stupid sportsball-like red-team-blue-team political conversations people have every day.
 
Autocracy / monarchy / timocracy for the win

Recently, Andrew Anglin made the point, when reflecting on the 30% approval rating of Joe Biden, and 6% approval rating of the most powerful Republican, Mitch McConnell, that there is no dictator in the world with a single digit approval rating.

Dictators / autocrats, unlike those "elected" in a "vote" are responsible to the will of the people, and an autocrat with a 6% approval rating simply cannot exist. Even in more blended systems like in England, there would be a referendum on leadership and the guy would be replaced with someone better, but here we are stuck with people less popular than eating insects (that polls at 18% by the way).

Even western sources, which you know are lying, will claim that people like Putin have a 70 or 80% approval rating, so you know it's much higher than that.

Beyond the ineffectiveness of the leaders we get in a democracy, I just can't stand all the time, energy, and efforts that people invest in these fake "elections." We're talking collectively of billions of hours and billions of dollars of money, all to change nothing, every 4 years. And all the stupid sportsball-like red-team-blue-team political conversations people have every day.
The only reason autocrats like Putin have an approval rating over 70% is because they suppress nearly all legitimate competitors before they even become widely known. In Russia, a few token Nazi or communist parties are allowed and that's about it. When the people don't know anything else, they tend to favor the incumbent.

Now whether this is a good thing or not is debatable. These autocrats range from mostly decent like Putin, to oppressive tyrants such as Xi, to everybody's worst nightmare like Kim Jong Un.
 
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