"I see bad people in Church'"

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I am one of those hypocrites that despises Sunday church service(s). Nothing is happening in them, except the repetition of love songs and sermons on a stage. Over the past year they have sucked the life out of me and I have asked the Lord to get me out from this.

I have a love-hate relationship with them. I firmly believe that when you're in church, you should be actively grasping the Word of God. Pretending as if there is some passive benefit to simply attending is insufficient. But the style of the preaching can either stall you or progress you.

Some believers are ready for meat, but if your church is only giving out milk, it might be time to find one that also offers meat.

 

[Samseau]

I wonder how well a good pastor or priest would change this viewpoint.
I had an outstanding protestant preacher who died years ago, and I stopped going to church afterwards for a long time. The man was a font of wisdom and every sermon was very meaningful. This is in contrast to churches I attended before where I found the sermons just boring preachy motivational "God is good, amirite?" stuff.

Church is about fellowship to some degree, sure. But you are mainly there to worship in the moment, to listen to the priest, to hear the music, to be uplifted by the spirit. You can stay around afterwards and chat with fellow Christians, and should, but that is not the prime focus. I think an excellent pastor or priest would overcome all these complaints. The problem is finding one.

I'm sure some would disagree, but I'd focus on a passionate, fiery, Godly pastor from any denomination, just to get the friend back into worship. As his spirit grows, he can be lead to the right place. Wherever God's word is read, there will be good. Don't leave your church to help him find one, but it's something to keep in mind... (The pastor in the story above was non-denominational and generally speaking, I strongly dislike the fact that such churches even exist. But he was inspired by the Holy Spirit and my time with him was wonderful).

And this is the major problem with Protestant parishes; they are 100% dependent on the pastor. That's not the case in Orthodoxy or Catholicism. The dogmas are defined, and the message is consistent. The individual priests matter greatly for them, but cannot make or break any single parish.

This is the fundamental problem why Protestantism dies over time. Consistently producing great pastors is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Conversely in Orthodoxy all you need is a great Bishop, and in Catholicism everything tends to rest on the Pope (which is a major flaw in itself).

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

This is the fundamental problem why Protestantism dies over time.

In it's relatively short time, Protestantism has already outgrown Eastern Orthodoxy and will soon outgrow Roman Catholicism, so I'm not sure what you mean by it dying over time.

 

[Samseau]

In it's relatively short time, Protestantism has already outgrown Eastern Orthodoxy and will soon outgrow Roman Catholicism, so I'm not sure what you mean by it dying over time.

Most definitions of Protestantism include nonsense non-trinitarian sects like Mormonism, which greatly inflates the numbers, but also, Prots are "easy come, easy go" - explosive growth in a country when first introduced, then a fast decline which we see in Europe and America. Right now Prots are enjoying huge growth in Latin America and Asia, but I expect it will follow the same pattern there too.

Conversely, Orthodoxy's growth is almost entirely dependent on not being persecuted - it grows whenever Bishops or Priests aren't getting killed. The relentless persecution is a major factor in Orthodoxy's slow growth, and it's incredible we grow at all considering how much Satan attacks us.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Pretending as if there is some passive benefit to simply attending is insufficient.

I don't mean to be combative, and this might only be semantics, but I believe there is a 'passive' benefit to attending, depending on what's meant by 'passive' I guess.

The Priest prays for us, the congregation is there praying together, the sacrements like Holy Communion deliver God's Grace, the Holy Spirit dwells there, etc.

I don't think I disagree with you but I just wanted to note, at least from an Orthodox perspective, just 'being there' to 'absorb' these things without knowing what's going on or without being an 'active' participant is still beneficial.

Hopefully that makes sense. All I'm saying is that there are supernatural effects that supercede and go beyond any sort of logical, verbal, or emotional effects or expectations.

This of course depends on the Church. Some churches will not be particularly receptive 'portals' for this.

I think of examples like babies. It's important for them to be there for the exact reasons I mentioned even though they can't be considered 'active' participants.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Most definitions of Protestantism include nonsense non-trinitarian sects like Mormonism, which greatly inflates the numbers, but also, Prots are "easy come, easy go" - explosive growth in a country when first introduced, then a fast decline which we see in Europe and America. Right now Prots are enjoying huge growth in Latin America and Asia, but I expect it will follow the same pattern there too.

Conversely, Orthodoxy's growth is almost entirely dependent on not being persecuted - it grows whenever Bishops or Priests aren't getting killed. The relentless persecution is a major factor in Orthodoxy's slow growth, and it's incredible we grow at all considering how much Satan attacks us.

It seems that whenever someone wants to highlight the fractitious nature of Protestantism, they will include Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics, (I've even seen Oriental Orthodox labeled as Protestant), into the "20,000+" denominations.

But when they wish to downplay the scale of Protestantism, which even in it's traditional forms is still only smaller than Roman Catholicism, they will exclude those heretical, and non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, JW, Gnosticism.

 

[StanWildman]

I am one of those hypocrites that despises Sunday church service(s). Nothing is happening in them, except the repetition of love songs and sermons on a stage. Over the past year they have sucked the life out of me and I have asked the Lord to get me out from this.

My experience going to Methodist services for quite a few years because of family obligations fits this description exactly. I blame myself mainly, but all in all it was a bad fit. From what I have seen many Protestant churches are like this but there seems to be a sizable population who genuinely like such an event, especially the contemporary Christian music aspect. (Which, if the latter doesn't for anything for you, can make it particularly tough to endure.)

 

[GoodShepherd]

Great points. One thing to point out, however, is that most of your examples are not direct social contact, relationship or even depending on the point of view, confrontation. Religion tends to ask something of people, at least in some regard, even if it is sappy, inclusive, or modern woke nonsense (show up and support us!). Combine those two and it can be a hard ask for a lot of people, especially people who aren't very secure in themselves (most).

I dont know hey, nobody forces you to go to church and they dont check up on you if you dont show up and they dont check if you give them any money either while the other institutions they require monthly fees, contracts, they have all your info and address, you have to attend meetings and soccer practice and engage with people and being on all their social media messenging groups etc etc, church you can pack up and leave any time, these other institutions you cant so easily get out, what Im saying is there is actually more of a commitment for these other institutions they ask a lot more from you

 

[larom]

I'm from a "very Christian" Bible belt area of the US & 90%+ of churches there are fake. The pastors are bogus. They don't live what they preach. As the bible says in revelations, this is very common in Armageddon which we are now living. Churches in general in the US aren't worth it.

The one pastor I do respect is called Rick Renner, he's baptist I believe, a native of Oklahoma who relocated to Russia in 90's for missionary purposes, ended up staying & is a legit bible scholar. He has a distinct southern US preaching style & cadence which I like. Most of his sermons are on rules for living in the end times & how much of what we were taught is null & void. I've never looked to humans for guidance but I'm a big fan of Rick.

He explains succinctly how in Greek "armageddon", doesn't mean "end of the world" but a change, where deception, demonic control, etc becomes the norm & how we as normal people can navigate this in everyday life. Be warned, a lot of this stuff is scary, it's not positive, preparing for & living it is not for the faint of heart but - it's the word of god.

Check out Rick Renner Ministries on youtube. This was a recent sermon I enjoyed, basically saying how during the end times people are lying, cheating, stealing & not to be trusted. If you know of more real spiritual leaders who practice what they preach & focus on practical matters of life in the end times, please post.

 

[Blade Runner]

I'm from a "very Christian" Bible belt area of the US & 90%+ of churches there are fake. The pastors are bogus. They don't live what they preach. As the bible says in revelations, this is very common in Armageddon which we are now living. Churches in general in the US aren't worth it.

The one pastor I do respect is called Rick Renner, he's baptist I believe, a native of Oklahoma who relocated to Russia in 90's for missionary purposes, ended up staying & is a legit bible scholar. He has a distinct southern US preaching style & cadence which I like. Most of his sermons are on rules for living in the end times & how much of what we were taught is null & void. I've never looked to humans for guidance but I'm a big fan of Rick.

He explains succinctly how in Greek "armageddon", doesn't mean "end of the world" but a change, where deception, demonic control, etc becomes the norm & how we as normal people can navigate this in everyday life. Be warned, a lot of this stuff is scary, it's not positive, preparing for & living it is not for the faint of heart but - it's the word of god.

Check out Rick Renner Ministries on youtube. This was a recent sermon I enjoyed, basically saying how during the end times people are lying, cheating, stealing & not to be trusted. If you know of more real spiritual leaders who practice what they preach & focus on practical matters of life in the end times, please post.

America is consumerist. Protestantism tends to be in line with self help and inclusion, which are very modern phenomena that sell to people = perfect fit, especially because humans tend to try to fill a spiritual void with something.

One has to remember that like salvation, something that is past, present and future, the "end times" are also similar. That is, men have been lovers of XYZ, idolaters, boastful, debauched, etc many times before. All sorts of empires have risen and fallen with nearly the exact same characteristics. Also, the "end times" for any given man is when he dies, and then time is all linked anyway. No one knows when the hour is coming for him, or when the Lord will come, so it's really closer to the same thing than it is functionally different. The parousia or appearing of our Lord is a theological reality, therefore, that will be real and in time, but again will be at the real end. But we also see Him when we die, so there we go again with how similar it all is.

As far as how now is "different" the only thing that I will grant is that the world is far more global and unnaturally connected than it ever has been. That's the only characteristic that is truly different. I have my own theories about when and what it will look like, but those don't matter, as they aren't my business.

 

[Rational1]

My last experience with a Protestant parish included seeing gay rainbow stickers posted everywhere and a female pastor who seemed like a lesbian. Granted this was in a very liberal state, but if that’s allowed, then I’m not on board.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

I don't mean to be combative, and this might only be semantics, but I believe there is a 'passive' benefit to attending, depending on what's meant by 'passive' I guess.

The Priest prays for us, the congregation is there praying together, the sacrements like Holy Communion deliver God's Grace, the Holy Spirit dwells there, etc.

I don't think I disagree with you but I just wanted to note, at least from an Orthodox perspective, just 'being there' to 'absorb' these things without knowing what's going on or without being an 'active' participant is still beneficial.

Hopefully that makes sense. All I'm saying is that there are supernatural effects that supercede and go beyond any sort of logical, verbal, or emotional effects or expectations.

This of course depends on the Church. Some churches will not be particularly receptive 'portals' for this.

I think of examples like babies. It's important for them to be there for the exact reasons I mentioned even though they can't be considered 'active' participants.

Another example here is deaf people in Church. They cannot hear anything, but I know some personally that still attend services. I'm just saying. While not ideal, it's important to see things from their perspective.

Many things require humility in this regard. When I first became Orthodox I didn't want to kiss the Priest's hand or icons but it was just my pride getting in my own way. It's really not a big deal and now I truly appreciate it and understand it.

A lot of my gripes are warranted but at the same time the Church isn't going to change itself for me. God has a master plan. I have to deal with what's being offered.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Most people have come to the consensus we're currently on the verge of change, or armageddon, right now. You don't believe this, you think it's business as usual right now?

Whether that change is from an orderly Christian age where angels rule the earth, to a demonic, chaotic "new age", a transition from industrial society to information society, technology disrupting power structures, I think it's clear we're on the verge of transition/change & the previous rules of living are null & void. Thus, a spiritual leader needs to help me navigate these realities. Adam & Eve type talk doesn't help me much.

Much end time prophecy in the bible probably applied to the fall of rome, however, it's the same thing we're living now. While this may not be popular here, end time prophecy in the Quran is very similar to to the Bible.

In terms of the return of Jesus, a few important things need to happen first, the Euphrates needs to dry completely, the antichrist needs to reveal himself also. The Euphrates gets lower every day achieving record lows & I believe the antichrist is behind the lockdown scams, but it's still unclear who did that. IMO - we will see these events happen in our lives.

PS - While it's a different subject I'd discuss elsewhere, globalization is coming to an end & the world is at it's most decentralized state in over 500 yrs. True globalization was when most of the earth was colonized, from 1500 - WW2. IIRC, it's either the Mormons or Amish that believe the end times officially began with WW1.

Every time the clock ticks we get closer to the end, Jesus returning, or our own death. It's just we don't know exactly when that will be. Obvious I know, but it helps me to view it this way, and how I've heard some Orthodox Priests explain it.

 

[Samseau]

It seems that whenever someone wants to highlight the fractitious nature of Protestantism, they will include Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics, (I've even seen Oriental Orthodox labeled as Protestant), into the "20,000+" denominations.

Of course they will, because it's a logical consequence of "sola scripture" aka the heretical belief that the individual is the final interpreter of scripture. That's why Protestantism leads to heresy en masse.

But when they wish to downplay the scale of Protestantism, which even in it's traditional forms is still only smaller than Roman Catholicism, they will exclude those heretical, and non-Christian groups such as Mormonism, JW, Gnosticism.

Of course they will, because if it's not trinitarian, it's not Christian.

Why are you surprised? There's no contradiction here.

 

[Northumber]

This usually leads to something like "I worship God in my own way I don't need the Bible or Church" or "All I need is my Bible I don't need a Church community". Either way it's a disconnect with other people because others are just so, so bad.

What is your response to this? I'm curious to see what you guys say.

My goal is how best to point them to Christ without being combative. So that's why I'm asking.

Considering the OP, about the best approach to help people.

I started thinking about this in relation to my kids. They hate going to church too. It just seems inconvenient to them, they'd rather play - essentially do what they want to do. At base, I think this is what is going on with people who say: "I have the Bible, I have Jesus, that's all I need". If I'm honest I have these feelings sometimes too. It's easier to do what I want to do. It's difficult in many ways going to church. And it is true that it can be difficult putting up with people there.

So, this is the line of reasoning I'm currently using with my kids. I use another thing they hate, but somewhat less, and that is sitting at the table together. They hate it slightly less than church because there is the incentive of food after all. But, it's a starting point and the overall hate is changing. They are starting to understand why we don't allow toys or phones at the table, and don't allow them to hum or make strange noises at the table. We want them to give attention to eachother and our family. They are actually starting to see the value in it and it's a tradition that is growing on them even though they think they don't like being there at times.

So I've been connecting our time at the table to church for them, and I think they are starting to get that connection now too.

I think almost every person who is sympathetic to Christianity is amenable to the idea of a family dinner. People can see value in it. It is important, enriching, and its a simple thing known to help create strong families. There is a rhythm to it. It happens once a day. Church is part of this rhythm but it is a much more poignant table to be at and a much more important place to give attention. There are rhythms in all of our life and Church is the highest rhythm. It does actually connect to what is most beautiful in life. Sad not to be a part of it.

 

[Samseau]

Explanations to children work best with simple language.

"God is real. We go to Church to show love to God, which we must do in order to get to heaven."

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Of course they will, because it's a logical consequence of "sola scripture" aka the heretical belief that the individual is the final interpreter of scripture. That's why Protestantism leads to heresy en masse.



Of course they will, because if it's not trinitarian, it's not Christian.

Why are you surprised? There's no contradiction here.

I'm not surprised. I'm merely noting the dishonest nature of anti-protestant apologetics. It's almost always a constant misrepresentation.

For example, no one who believes in Scripture Alone believes the individual is the final interpreter of the Bible, we believe the Bible has objective meaning. For the record, JW and Mormons hate the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

 

[Samseau]

For example, no one who believes in Scripture Alone believes the individual is the final interpreter of the Bible.

Then why are there 20,000 denominations of Prots, including apostate non-trinitary sects? Who is in charge?

I believe this is related to the topic at hand: many people are not going to have a good time in Church when the experience will be so wildly inconsistent as Prot Churches are like pulling a slot machine in terms of results.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Then why are there 20,000 denominations of Prots, including apostate non-trinitary sects?

There's not. There's only a handful of Protestant denominations with any meaningful doctrinal difference between them. No more difference than say the Russian Orthodox Church compared to the Greek Orthodox Church. I will grant that there are "40,000+" Protestant organizations doing missionary work, etc. in the world.

Why would you include non-trinitarian sects into Protestantism? That would be like me including Oriental Orthodox as a sect of Eastern Orthodox, despite them having a different Christology. It makes no sense and is a very loose definition of the term.

Who is in charge?

God, through His Word, remains as the objective standard for all Christians.

I believe this is related to the topic at hand: many people are not going to have a good time in Church when the experience will be so wildly inconsistent as Prot Churches are like pulling a slot machine in terms of results.

Obviously, one's experience in a church will depend on how well they understand the church is lining up with their theology. For me, anytime I go into a church, I'm holding it up to the standard of the Bible.

 

[Rodion]

There's not. There's only a handful of Protestant denominations with any meaningful doctrinal difference between them. No more difference than say the Russian Orthodox Church compared to the Greek Orthodox Church. I will grant that there are "40,000+" Protestant organizations doing missionary work, etc. in the world.

Why would you include non-trinitarian sects into Protestantism? That would be like me including Oriental Orthodox as a sect of Eastern Orthodox, despite them having a different Christology. It makes no sense and is a very loose definition of the term.


God, through His Word, remains as the objective standard for all Christians.


Obviously, one's experience in a church will depend on how well they understand the church is lining up with their theology. For me, anytime I go into a church, I'm holding it up to the standard of the Bible.

The standard of the Bible + your interpretation of it. The problem, of course, is when somebody forms a church claiming the same standard, but preaching heresy.

The church and her saints being the lens through which scripture is read is the solution to this problem.