Did Pope Francis Allow Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships?

[Northumber]

Well, maybe they can join the Greeks then,

The Homosexual Captivity of the Greek Orthodox Church

Back in the 80s, there was a hit movie from France called La Cage aux Folles (“birds of a feather” more or less); a comedy about homosexuality and hypocrisy, which often go hand in hand. A young couple wanted to get married and because the father of the prospective groom was homosexual, he...

russian-faith.com

It's best not to criticise others without cleaning up first what exists in our own churches.

Isn't the foundation of the Church actually the Saints? I have a feeling this is going to be more and more evident going forward. Functionally I've written off viewpoints of many Church leaders already. The absolute stupidity of a fear over a certain "sickness" laid bare where these leaders' faith actually lies (in "science", in "our accomplishments", in "our progress", in this world). Their terrible moral judgements seem consistently in line with that particular question.

 

[Wutang]

A cardinal addresses some of the comments on the document.

Cardinal Fernández: Same-sex blessing ‘does not validate or justify anything’

In an interview with 'The Pillar,' the DDF's prefect discusses 'Fiducia supplicans'

www.pillarcatholic.com

It is necessary to distinguish well, and the declaration makes this distinction. Couples are blessed. The union is not blessed, for the reasons that the declaration repeatedly explains about the true meaning of Christian marriage and sexual relations.

I don't understand how blessing two sodomites as a couple rather than as two individuals doesn't equate to blessing their pairing.

 

[analyst_green]

Well, maybe they can join the Greeks then,

The Homosexual Captivity of the Greek Orthodox Church

Back in the 80s, there was a hit movie from France called La Cage aux Folles (“birds of a feather” more or less); a comedy about homosexuality and hypocrisy, which often go hand in hand. A young couple wanted to get married and because the father of the prospective groom was homosexual, he...

russian-faith.com

It's best not to criticise others without cleaning up first what exists in our own churches.



You can "state facts" without being hostile and using rhetorical terms like "Latin Protestants". @Vas Incrementum is correct in this, and he's asked a few times in this thread for it to stop. Part of being able to get along with others is to value the fact that the other person is made in the image of God, which means that they're able to choose what they believe in, and live with whatever that entails. Do you ever try to rip apart left leaning family members at Christmas dinner? If not, why not? Or have you already alienated those in the family who believe differently around you?

I did not realize the Church of Greece was so strongly connected with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, that does not bode well for them. Also, it appears things in the EP are even worse than I thought. I googled "Bulgarian Stallions" as the author suggested. Well let's just say he wasn't talking about horses...

BREAKING NEWS: Multiple Scandals Being Exposed Throughout Ecumenical Patriarchate | Greek News On Demand / ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ΝΕΑ ΤΩΡΑ

BREAKING NEWS: Multiple Scandals Being Exposed Throughout Ecumenical Patriarchate Christ’s Church has been full…

greeknewsondemand.com

 

[Aboulia]

I ask this as an inquirer looking in. Isn't the foundation of the Church actually the Saints? I have a feeling this is going to be more and more evident going forward. Functionally I've written off viewpoints of many Church leaders already. The absolute stupidity of a fear over a certain "sickness" laid bare where these leaders' faith actually lies (in "science", in "our accomplishments", in "our progress", in this world). Their terrible moral judgements seem consistently in line with that particular question.

Almost, the 'rock' Christ founded his church on, is the confession of faith. The saints being those who have finished the course well, having lived that confession out, and are worthy of emulation in some manner.

When I was with the schismatics, I remember writing my bishop (whom I instinctively didn't like) a fairly angry letter against mask use in the church, and he responded to the effect that "the government doesn't have the right, but it has the power to do so", and that it doesn't affect dogma, and thus doesn't affect the confession of faith. He had a heart attack and died 6 months later. Wasn't ever able to get a straight answer whether he took the vax or not.

But he was correct in one matter, that the elevation of pride that lead me to abstaining from communion, was something I needed to work on. Everyone can end up helping us realize some flaws that we need to work out in ourselves. Even hierarchs lacking in correct judgement in some situations. Good bishops can make bad calls. Bishop Luke of Syracuse once put out a statement regarding vaccines, and has since then withdrawn it.

 

[Elipe]

I'm glad our Christian friends have so much interest in the Catholic church.

Mark 9:39-41
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward."

As somebody with no interest in becoming Catholic, I still respect Catholics as fellow Christians. No more brother wars. We all answer to the same Name. When Catholics are down and are getting kicked by their Pope, they need a cup of water. Likewise, when our churches fail us, we need cups of water.

Brothers are strongest when they are united.

 

[canuckj]

Serious question for Catholics. Is the defense of the Pope a coping mechanism as RCs feel they have no where to go? To an outsider it appears as a bit of a mind bending trick to believe that the Pope blessing sin (same sex unions) is not a type of approval. Add into this the ex-communication (or whatever it is called) of those priests who speak in favor of historic Christian truths.

Protestants can leave and find a new denomination that they believe is more faithful. Orthodox Christians also have a variety of churches to choose from. What about Catholics? I know there are some Catholics that are outside of the RC Church but still accepted by it such as Ukrainian and maybe some middle eastern Catholic groups. Are these options?

 

[analyst_green]

Serious question for Catholics. Is the defense of the Pope a coping mechanism as RCs feel they have no where to go? To an outsider it appears as a bit of a mind bending trick to believe that the Pope blessing sin (same sex unions) is not a type of approval. Add into this the ex-communication (or whatever it is called) of those priests who speak in favor of historic Christian truths.

Protestants can leave and find a new denomination that they believe is more faithful. Orthodox Christians also have a variety of churches to choose from. What about Catholics? I know there are some Catholics that are outside of the RC Church but still accepted by it such as Ukrainian and maybe some middle eastern Catholic groups. Are these options?

My understanding is that the Eastern Catholic churches are full members of the RCC just as the Latin Church is, and as such they are fully subject to the doctrine of papal infallibility.

 

[SeaEagle]

I feel like too many non-Catholics are making assertions about doctrine and dogma, especially the negative charism of papal infallibility.

This thread has devolved into Catholic bashing. I believe all questions have been answered in prior posts, please take a look through them and likely a full read of the (relatively short) document would clarify many things.

This isn't an endorsement of the document, as I worry it was a purposely ambiguous backdoor set by modernists within the church. I don't see papal infalliabilty being valid here of other dogmas/doctrines being directly defined or promulgated.

Please pray for us.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Serious question for Catholics. Is the defense of the Pope a coping mechanism as RCs feel they have no where to go? To an outsider it appears as a bit of a mind bending trick to believe that the Pope blessing sin (same sex unions) is not a type of approval. Add into this the ex-communication (or whatever it is called) of those priests who speak in favor of historic Christian truths.

Protestants can leave and find a new denomination that they believe is more faithful. Orthodox Christians also have a variety of churches to choose from. What about Catholics? I know there are some Catholics that are outside of the RC Church but still accepted by it such as Ukrainian and maybe some middle eastern Catholic groups. Are these options?

What defense of the pope are you talking about? I don't think I've seen any Catholics here saying this document or this pope is wonderful. The closest I've seen anyone saying is that this document may be technically correct in its wording (which it sounds like you haven't read or even looked into much at all), but is tone deaf and has terrible optics.

Is leaving and finding a new denomination as soon as you hear something you disagree with really a good long term strategy? Do people think that they personally know actual true Christianity and they need to find a church that is as based and correct as they are? Picking a church should not be like used car shopping where you say, "I want x, y, and z," and then look for one that has those features/teaches those things. One ought to approach the subject with humility, at realize that no matter how informed he may think he is about theological matters, he does not have all the answers. The vast majority of us would be better off trying to live our own lives more virtuously than lead others.

And I understand that a lot of people really can't resist the urge to dunk on the Catholic Church when they see an opening, but pray that your own church handles this issue more appropriately when it arises. Because it will.

 

[Northumber]

Is leaving and finding a new denomination as soon as you hear something you disagree with really a good long term strategy? Do people think that they personally know actual true Christianity and they need to find a church that is as based and correct as they are?

These are really good questions. In some sense I think we don't decide as much as we think we do. We embody a tradition and it frames our thinking (sometimes without us knowing it). For example, it is a certain culture/tradition that defines itself partly by hopping from one denomination to the other. If we do actually manage to go on that path to "know Christ" there will be suffering (the only way for us to grow in the state we are in is through suffering).

Picking a church should not be like used car shopping where you say, "I want x, y, and z," and then look for one that has those features/teaches those things. One ought to approach the subject with humility, at realize that no matter how informed he may think he is about theological matters, he does not have all the answers. The vast majority of us would be better off trying to live our own lives more virtuously than lead others.

I agree completely with this. Humility is the only way to cultivate our conscience and align it with Christ. I was going to reply earlier to @Aboulia about humility in regards to church leaders. There is something there that is being darkly abused at the moment (maybe it's been more than a moment). But basically I think it's similar to the victim/virtue trick (the victim/virtue trick being the feigning of a victimhood and/or a charitable stance in order to gain status). A similar trick is used by some church leaders with humility but in the direction of those they should be caring for. They use the concept of humility as leverage against those in their care (projecting to their flock that they are not being humble enough after leading them somewhere ambiguous). It's highly disfunctional and after observing them do it I think some realize what they are doing and are very evil and others don't really know what they are doing and sort of do it out of an embodied disfunctional tradition they've assumed. Of course the answer to all this is still true humility. I think a Saint could shame an abusive church leader into humility while remaining humble (Pageau has recently made some videos giving examples of Saints doing this in the past)

And I understand that a lot of people really can't resist the urge to dunk on the Catholic Church when they see an opening, but pray that your own church handles this issue more appropriately when it arises. Because it will.

I also think this is a marker, a sign of things to come. I don't think it will be long before previously conservative churches will be acting in ambiguous ways. I've noticed that even the little Lutheran church I grew up in has revamped their website where it's quite difficult to find their stance on alphabet people (it used to be up front and center).

 

[cognitive dissonance 73]

I wonder what

This post likely belongs in the Catholic forum:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/18/world/europe/pope-gay-lesbian-same-sex-blessing.html

https://archive.is/oel6Y

Seriously, this thread is so evidently nothing but a trolling attempt. (Not sure why the moderators left it in.) Anyone who bother to check: the current pope did NOT approve same sex relationship. The Catholic Churches' position has not changed on this at all.

Nevertheless, sometimes it makes you wonder what motivates someone to create such trollish thread?

Aren't enough issues to care about within the so-called eastern orthodox Churches.

The Pope is welcome on Orthodox-majority Ukraine and Georgia - and treated with utmost respect during his official visit.
"Patriarch" Kirill (whom many here believe is the "head of Orthodoxy" while he actually isn't) would probably made to eat to his tiara (or worse) by the (justifiably angry) locals if he set foot in any of those two countries.

Again, according to former RVF "Orthobros" "The Ukranian Orthodox Church does not exist" (In reality, it does exist, and i, in fact it is way older than the Russian") and "Georgian Orthodox Church doesn't exist, either". (wrong again, The Georgian Orthodox Church exists, and it is way older than the Russian orthodox Church.)

Instead of making up baseless allegations against the Pope, could our local Orthodox member please answer the following questions?

Why are you ok with Patriarch Kirill blessing Russian weapons and troops that have murderer Orthodox civilians in Georgia (in 2008) and in Ukraine (2014-presnet.) Have can you look into the mirror after receiving communion in a church that has such leadership? Have you ever read the Bible? Do you sleep well at night, knowing all this?

 

[Get2choppaaa]

I wonder what

Seriously, this thread is so evidently nothing but a trolling attempt. (Not sure why the moderators left it in.) Anyone who bother to check: the current pope did NOT approve same sex relationship. The Catholic Churches' position has not changed on this at all.

Nevertheless, sometimes it makes you wonder what motivates someone to create such trollish thread?

Aren't enough issues to care about within the so-called eastern orthodox Churches.

The Pope is welcome on Orthodox-majority Ukraine and Georgia - and treated with utmost respect during his official visit.
"Patriarch" Kirill (whom many here believe is the "head of Orthodoxy" while he actually isn't) would probably made to eat to his tiara (or worse) by the (justifiably angry) locals if he set foot in any of those two countries.

Again, according to former RVF "Orthobros" "The Ukranian Orthodox Church does not exist" (In reality, it does exist, and i, in fact it is way older than the Russian") and "Georgian Orthodox Church doesn't exist, either". (wrong again, The Georgian Orthodox Church exists, and it is way older than the Russian orthodox Church.)

Instead of making up baseless allegations against the Pope, could our local Orthodox member please answer the following questions?

Why are you ok with Patriarch Kirill blessing Russian weapons and troops that have murderer Orthodox civilians in Georgia (in 2008) and in Ukraine (2014-presnet.) Have can you look into the mirror after receiving communion in a church that has such leadership? Have you ever read the Bible? Do you sleep well at night, knowing all this?

And he's back with his Anti Russia posts!!!!

That didn't take long.

 

[Jeremiah Branch]

Ultimately, the fundamental question that underlies all internecine debates among Christians is that of Authority. Catholics have their answer, the Orthodox, theirs, and Protestants, another. And each answer comes with its own presuppositions and assumptions that in the end are adopted but cannot be fully justified other than by a sort of personal intuition. (Every one of us chooses his church.)

This particular issue has highlighted some of the problems with the Catholic answer to "What authority?" It doesn't mean Orthodox and Protestant cannot face similar situations, but the fact is, this latest proclamation puts into focus the weaknesses and vulnerabilities to the Catholic approach.

I cannot fault my side for pointing this out, or for asking Catholics how they propose to deal with it, both personally and institutionally. But, yeah, it should be done in good faith, with charity and not to troll or gloat.

 

[budoslavic]

I wonder what

Seriously, this thread is so evidently nothing but a trolling attempt. (Not sure why the moderators left it in.) Anyone who bother to check: the current pope did NOT approve same sex relationship. The Catholic Churches' position has not changed on this at all.

Nevertheless, sometimes it makes you wonder what motivates someone to create such trollish thread?

 

[Samseau]

I wonder what

Seriously, this thread is so evidently nothing but a trolling attempt. (Not sure why the moderators left it in.) Anyone who bother to check: the current pope did NOT approve same sex relationship. The Catholic Churches' position has not changed on this at all.

Nevertheless, sometimes it makes you wonder what motivates someone to create such trollish thread?

Aren't enough issues to care about within the so-called eastern orthodox Churches.

The Pope is welcome on Orthodox-majority Ukraine and Georgia - and treated with utmost respect during his official visit.
"Patriarch" Kirill (whom many here believe is the "head of Orthodoxy" while he actually isn't) would probably made to eat to his tiara (or worse) by the (justifiably angry) locals if he set foot in any of those two countries.

Again, according to former RVF "Orthobros" "The Ukranian Orthodox Church does not exist" (In reality, it does exist, and i, in fact it is way older than the Russian") and "Georgian Orthodox Church doesn't exist, either". (wrong again, The Georgian Orthodox Church exists, and it is way older than the Russian orthodox Church.)

Instead of making up baseless allegations against the Pope, could our local Orthodox member please answer the following questions?

Why are you ok with Patriarch Kirill blessing Russian weapons and troops that have murderer Orthodox civilians in Georgia (in 2008) and in Ukraine (2014-presnet.) Have can you look into the mirror after receiving communion in a church that has such leadership? Have you ever read the Bible? Do you sleep well at night, knowing all this?

Bringing up Russia is off-topic in a thread about the Pope and his stance on sodomy. Make another Russia post here and I'll be forced to ban you out of this thread.

 

[cognitive dissonance 73]

This post likely belongs in the Catholic forum:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/18/world/europe/pope-gay-lesbian-same-sex-blessing.html

https://archive.is/oel6

Instead of creating this trollish thread you could have just checked the Vatican's official position on this "news".

Doctrinal declaration opens possibility of blessing couples in irregular situations - Vatican News

With the Declaration “Fiducia supplicans” issued by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, approved by Pope Francis, it will be possible to ...

www.vaticannews.va

"When two people request a blessing, even if their situation as a couple is “irregular,” it will be possible for the ordained minister to consent. However, this gesture of pastoral closeness must avoid any elements that remotely resemble a marriage rite."

In other words, if a same sex couple comes to a priest for blessing, the priest -on his own discretion. - may decide to give a blessing. This, however, not mean, by any means, the approval of same sex relationship let alone same sex marriages.

 

[budoslavic]

Instead of creating this trollish thread you could have just checked the Vatican's official position on this "news".

Doctrinal declaration opens possibility of blessing couples in irregular situations - Vatican News

With the Declaration “Fiducia supplicans” issued by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, approved by Pope Francis, it will be possible to ...

www.vaticannews.va

"When two people request a blessing, even if their situation as a couple is “irregular,” it will be possible for the ordained minister to consent. However, this gesture of pastoral closeness must avoid any elements that remotely resemble a marriage rite."

In other words, if a same sex couple comes to a priest for blessing, the priest -on his own discretion. - may decide to give a blessing. This, however, not mean, by any means, the approval of same sex relationship let alone same sex marriages.

You clearly did not read the entire thread to connect the dots between Pope Francis and Fr. James Martin's Outreach LGBQT Catholic group. The fake "LGBQT Catholic" are activists with an agenda.

I am still flabbergasted by several Catholics who complained about non-Catholics bashing the Pope or the Catholic Church and/or defending the FS. The difference is that a lot of us see through the B.S. and the deception.

Just a friendly reminder for those who are not paying attention:

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. -Romans 1:26-27

Also, read St. John Chrysostom's Homily 4 on the Epistle to the Romans.

Edit. A section from St. John Chrysostom's Homily 4 (at the start of his homily on Romans 1:26-27):

All these affections then were vile, but chiefly the mad lust after males; for the soul is more the sufferer in sins, and more dishonored, than the body in diseases. But behold how here too, as in the case of the doctrines, he deprives them of excuse, by saying of the women, that "they changed the natural use." For no one, he means, can say that it was by being hindered of legitimate intercourse that they came to this pass, or that it was from having no means to fulfil their desire that they were driven into this monstrous insaneness. For the changing implies possession. Which also when discoursing upon the doctrines he said, "They changed the truth of God for a lie." And with regard to the men again, he shows the same thing by saying, "Leaving the natural use of the woman." And in a like way with those, these he also puts out of all means of defending themselves by charging them not only that they had the means of gratification, and left that which they had, and went after another, but that having dishonored that which was natural, they ran after that which was contrary to nature. But that which is contrary to nature hath in it an irksomeness and displeasingness, so that they could not fairly allege even pleasure. For genuine pleasure is that which is according to nature. But when God hath left one, then all things are turned upside down. And thus not only was their doctrine Satanical, but their life too was diabolical.

Homily 4 is a long read, but a must-read.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Literally nobody on this forum, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise, is arguing for anything pro-gay. You don't have to quote Romans to remind anybody here that sodomy is bad, and you doing so is trying to build a straw-man to try and misrepresent the views of those who disagree with you. The only argument that's even remotely relevant here is whether the document is itself flawed, or whether it is acceptable but misrepresented by the media to say something which is not intended. You "seeing through the B.S. and deception" requires to know what is in the hearts of those who wrote the document, and neither you nor anyone else on this forum knows that. It certainly seems to me you are being less than charitable, and eager to assume the worst intentions of others.

Are there forces within the Catholic Church that are acting with a pro-gay agenda? I'm sure there are. These forces also will exist in every church that is operating in our culture which aims to promote sodomy at all costs. Trust me when I say it's in the interest of all Christians that the Catholic Church does not capitulate on this issue. As much as there has been a de-Christianization of Western society, the Catholic Church still has cultural sway in the West that other churches do not.

 

[budoslavic]

Literally nobody on this forum, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise, is arguing for anything pro-gay. You don't have to quote Romans to remind anybody here that sodomy is bad, and you doing so is trying to build a straw-man to try and misrepresent the views of those who disagree with you. The only argument that's even remotely relevant here is whether the document is itself flawed, or whether it is acceptable but misrepresented by the media to say something which is not intended. You "seeing through the B.S. and deception" requires to know what is in the hearts of those who wrote the document, and neither you nor anyone else on this forum knows that. It certainly seems to me you are being less than charitable, and eager to assume the worst intentions of others.

Are there forces within the Catholic Church that are acting with a pro-gay agenda? I'm sure there are. These forces also will exist in every church that is operating in our culture which aims to promote sodomy at all costs. Trust me when I say it's in the interest of all Christians that the Catholic Church does not capitulate on this issue. As much as there has been a de-Christianization of Western society, the Catholic Church still has cultural sway in the West that other churches do not.

I won't sugarcoat nor apologize for telling it like it is whether if you agreed or disagreed. I am merely pointing out major red flags that are being ignored.

Look at what has happened over the last several decades by various LGBQT groups that have successfully pushed for and/or normalized the following:

• pedophilia;
• gay marriage;
• gay couples adopting children;
• transgenderism;
• LGBQT books and LGBQT clubs in schools for small children up to college;
• LGBQT training in businesses, military, law enforcement, schools, etc.;
• and so on.

Now, they are targeting a strong traditional church such as the Catholic Church.

Without a doubt, the guy below is a radical LGBQT activist - major red flag - based on my research when I found his social media page a while back. Let's just say I was so disgusted by what I saw in his social media posts, which required an enormous amount of eye bleach.

Edit. Also, add Fr. James Martin to the red flag list because his teaching is extremely deceptive and immoral.

 

[Lazuli Waves]

Catholic priest wearing rainbow stole gives ‘blessing’ to women civilly ‘married’ for 22 years. The Saint Paul Catholic Church in Kentucky posted a picture of the 'blessing' on their official Facebook page. The text accompanying the photo said that the 'blessing' was 'offered according to the guidelines in Fiducia Supplicans.'

Catholic priest wearing rainbow stole gives ‘blessing’ to women civilly ‘married’ for 22 years - LifeSite

The Saint Paul Catholic Church in Kentucky posted a picture of the 'blessing' on their official Facebook page. The text accompanying the photo said that the 'blessing' was 'offered according to the guidelines in Fiducia Supplicans.'

www.lifesitenews.com