Christianity Lounge

[scary_robot_music]

This is unfortunately true but IIMT is not the only one. In fact, this is probably true for a large section of the forum. People still have a politics first, Christ in a distant second mindset.

I think it has to be this way when you have different kinds of Christians on equal footing. Let me explain.

When RVF first turned officially Christian I thought awesome, hopefully there will be a lot of respectful and meaningful discussions of Christianity and theology done is a harmonious spirit of Christian brotherhood, and this will help me figure out which branch of Christianity is the most correct, or at least best for me.

How naive I was. Instead we got bitter infighting between mainstream Catholics, sedevacantist Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants and endless tedious debates over stuff like the filioque. It got me no closer to choosing a denomination. In fact, I ended up further from choosing and the only useful takeaway I got was that the different branches of Christianity are almost entirely different religions. They call themselves Christian and worship a figure called Jesus Christ, but their ideas about that figure and how to worship Him are very, very different. It's almost impossible for the different denominations to get along unless you have one branch declared dominant like in RVF 2.0, or you segregate them as we do at CiK. Once you do the latter, I think you have a bunch of guys who basically agree on everything, so there's not that much to post about. The bitter fighting between the denominations isn't fun (for me at least) but it does drive more activity on the forum.

Regardless, these almost entirely different religions that call themselves Christian do easily agree on many surface things like abortion and pornography being bad, strongly disagreeing with liberals and leftists in general, not blaspheming Christ, and so on. So, it's much easier to have all different types of Christians talk culture and politics together than theology. I myself enjoy being able to discuss the events of the day here without godless people being able to resort to blasphemy and their enthusiasm about homosexuality as trump cards.

Back to theology, you once did a lengthy debate with an Orthodox member that was an exception to the uncharitable mudslinging I mention above. You talked a lot about the visible vs. the invisible church, and neither you nor the guy you were debating flew off the handle and resorted to personal attacks at any time. It was very helpful to me, and the kind of thing I'd hoped to see much more often on RVF 2.0 and here. I wish I'd copied it out and kept it to refer to, but it was a while ago and I have no idea where to look now.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I think it has to be this way when you have different kinds of Christians on equal footing. Let me explain.

I hear what you're saying, and a lot of it is true, but I still stand by my point. That there are members who very clearly are politically minded first with Christianity being more of a window dressing to them. My desire is to tempt them to dive into their faith more deeply. This is not just a forum problem, but a broader cultural problem.

I think "on the outside, looking in" some of the theological topics we've gotten into can come across as more disparate than they really are. There are real differences across denominations, I don't deny it, but I would be careful to not go so far as to call them different religions. For the things we argue about, there are many other things that we aren't arguing about because on those we agree. The disagreements can become underscored and the agreements can become invisible. Be wary of that.

As for the political side, there are plenty of disagreements in that area as well. We have people who support abortion. People who are always Trump, never Trump, sometimes Trump, whatever. The funny thing is, many of us are on the right-side of the spectrum because of our Chrsitianity, despite coming from different denominations.

 

[scary_robot_music]

asdf

For the things we argue about, there are many other things that we aren't arguing about because on those we agree. The disagreements can become underscored and the agreements can become invisible. Be wary of that.

Good point. That said, my takeaway from RVF 2.0 before Roosh banned all non-Orthodox thought was definitely that Catholicism (all flavors), Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are essentially entirely different religions. Each only has slightly more in common with the other than they all have in common with Islam, in my opinion. I could be wrong, as you point out.

I'm not even saying the guys who'd do the endless fighting with other types of Christians are necessarily wrong. Maybe God does care deeply about which branch you choose and maybe if you choose wrong or just refuse to choose like me, you are putting your eternal soul in peril. Who knows. I don't.

 

[Servant of Christ]

Good point. That said, my takeaway from RVF 2.0 before Roosh banned all non-Orthodox thought was definitely that Catholicism (all flavors), Orthodoxy, and Protestantism are essentially entirely different religions. Each only has slightly more in common with the other than they all have in common with Islam, in my opinion. I could be wrong, as you point out.

I agree with this point. I'm sorry to go into a religious rant but I will try my best to explain.

There is and can only ever be one true Church that was founded by Jesus Christ. Surely we all agree He didn't found muliple Churches, right? We all agree there was one Church at the beginning, right? From there it's just a matter of looking at history and using a little bit of logic and common sense to follow the trail and understand where things stand today.

"Catholics" used to be a part of the "Orthodox" Church in the first millenium - which in those days was simply "the Church" - and now they aren't. There were 5 patriarchates - Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem. One of them pulled an Eric Cartman. Another way to look at it is like a band member that leaves the band and keeps using the name, claiming to be the real band, because they think their contributions were oh so more important and valuable than the rest, meanwhile the other 4 original people are still there, doing their thing, and they have nothing to prove to anyone. The person who left may even get super famous but they will never be "the Beatles", or whatever.

So let's look at what these words mean. "Orthodox" in our context means correct, traditional, authentic; some would translate it as "right or correct belief". What is meant by this is that the "Orthodox" Church is the one true, Catholic (which means universal) and Apostolic Church. There are minimal if any changes from the original. Apostolic means we can trace authority from today all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles. We literally know the name of every single man who laid hands on another man and transferred the authority, all the way back to Christ Himself. It is a factually and historically true statement which cannot be argued against in good faith.

The disagreement is primarily that "Catholics" claim that the Orthodox left them and thereby lost some (or all, depending on who you talk to) legitimacy at some point, and the Orthodox claim the opposite (which is objectively true and correct), but there is no doubt of the historical authenticity and lineage of the Orthodox Church going back to Christ and the Apostles. The two Churches also recognize each others sacrements to some degree, though they are not in communion. This is why Catholics are often Chrismated into the Orthodox Church (not fully re-baptized), and don't require full baptism (Catholic baptism is also lacking, as it often isn't done with a full triple immersion, which is a bigger deal than it sounds, but that's another issue).

Protestants (speaking as someone who was raised in various flavors of protestantism) are a whole other can of worms. It goes without saying that while protestents certainly may enjoy the Grace of God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit to some degree, they cannot ever claim to be members of the original, one, true Church, and they do not have any direct legacy regarding it. Protestantism is a new innovation which copies some aspect of the Orthodox faith but has no connection to the original. It is like coke and pepsi.

That being said there are a ton of really wonderful, genuine, well-meaning people who really do love Christ and are protestants or Catholics (like my own parents, for example). These people are equally worthy of love and respect as any Orthodox Christian. I'm also not going to suggest that it's impossible to achieve salvation outside of the Orthodox Church, because only God really knows who is truly saved, but they are most certainly missing out on receiving His most pure body and precious blood and cannot ever be considered as part of the universal body of Christ in the same way that Orthodox Christians are.

This is unfortunately "the truth" as it stands today as I understand it, and I've done a LOT of research and debate on this subject, before coming to this conclusion and seeking out the Orthodox Church. The reason I say it's "unfortunate" is that some folks are really missing out, and there's simply no other way to sugar coat it. Personally I would love nothing more than for all followers of Christ to unite and be part of the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am encouraged every day and I see so many Orthodox Catachumens and that is probably the largest reason why I donate so much of my time to this forum. I pray that my efforts may in some small part bring even one single person person closer to the truth and taking that step towards Christ and His Church.

I rarely post these kind of passionate rants so I hope everyone will forgive me this one time. I love you all and I pray that every one of you will truly come to know Christ and find the salvation that only He can provide.

Take care & God bless.

In Christ,

SoC

 

[FrancisK]

I agree with this point. I'm sorry to go into a religious rant but I will try my best to explain.

There is and can only ever be one true Church that was founded by Jesus Christ. Surely we all agree He didn't found muliple Churches, right? We all agree there was one Church at the beginning, right? From there it's just a matter of looking at history and using a little bit of logic and common sense to follow the trail and understand where things stand today.

"Catholics" used to be a part of the "Orthodox" Church in the first millenium - which in those days was simply "the Church" - and now they aren't. There were 5 patriarchates - Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem. One of them pulled an Eric Cartman. Another way to look at it is like a band member that leaves the band and keeps using the name, claiming to be the real band, because they think their contributions were oh so more important and valuable than the rest, meanwhile the other 4 original people are still there, doing their thing, and they have nothing to prove to anyone. The person who left may even get super famous but they will never be "the Beatles", or whatever.

So let's look at what these words mean. "Orthodox" in our context means correct, traditional, authentic; some would translate it as "right or correct belief". What is meant by this is that the "Orthodox" Church is the one true, Catholic (which means universal) and Apostolic Church. There are minimal if any changes from the original. Apostolic means we can trace authority from today all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles. We literally know the name of every single man who laid hands on another man and transferred the authority, all the way back to Christ Himself. It is a factually and historically true statement which cannot be argued against in good faith.

The disagreement is primarily that "Catholics" claim that the Orthodox left them and thereby lost some (or all, depending on who you talk to) legitimacy at some point, and the Orthodox claim the opposite (which is objectively true and correct), but there is no doubt of the historical authenticity and lineage of the Orthodox Church going back to Christ and the Apostles. The two Churches also recognize each others sacrements to some degree, though they are not in communion. This is why Catholics are often Chrismated into the Orthodox Church (not fully re-baptized), and don't require full baptism (Catholic baptism is also lacking, as it often isn't done with a full triple immersion, which is a bigger deal than it sounds, but that's another issue).

Protestants (speaking as someone who was raised in various flavors of protestantism) are a whole other can of worms. It goes without saying that while protestents certainly may enjoy the Grace of God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit to some degree, they cannot ever claim to be members of the original, one, true Church, and they do not have any direct legacy regarding it. Protestantism is a new innovation which copies some aspect of the Orthodox faith but has no connection to the original. It is like coke and pepsi.

That being said there are a ton of really wonderful, genuine, well-meaning people who genuinely do love Christ and are protestants or Catholics. These people are equally worthy of love and respect as any Orthodox Christian. I'm also not going to suggest that it's impossible to achieve salvation outside of the Orthodox Church, because only God really knows who is truly saved, but they are most certainly missing out on receiving His most pure body and precious blood and cannot ever be considered as part of the universal body of Christ in the same way that Orthodox Christians are.

This is unfortunately "the truth" as it stands today as I understand it, and I've done a LOT of research and debate on this subject, before coming to this conclusion and seeking out the Orthodox Church. The reason I say it's "unfortunate" is that some folks are really missing out, and there's simply no other way to sugar coat it. Personally I would love nothing more than for all followers of Christ to unite and be part of the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am encouraged every day and I see so many Orthodox Catachumens and that is probably the largest reason why I donate so much of my time to this forum. I pray that my efforts may in some small part bring even one single person person closer to the truth and taking that step towards Christ and His Church.

I rarely post these kind of passionate rants so I hope everyone will forgive me this one time. I love you all and I pray that every one of you will truly come to know Christ and find the salvation that only He can provide.

Take care & God bless.

In Christ,

SoC

What would you say to someone like myself whose people practice an extremely conservative and traditional form of Catholicism in Aramaic that dates itself to the very beginning. I don't ask contentiously, I'm simply curious as to what you have to say.

 

[FrancisK]

I feel very sorry to admit it, but I must confess that I fall into this category. I realize that I don't really don't bring anything of value here in the long run, spiritually or temporally. My post-to-reaction-score ratio has never topped 4:1. Numbers don't lie.

As I once read years ago: "The only consistent feature of all of your dissatisfying relationships is YOU."

Whatever, I'll just plug away at trade school and try to make myself useful to society "pulling wrenches." At the end of the day, the only person living who cares whether or not I end up dead in a ditch is my psychotic, emotionally crippled elderly mother, for whom I'm naught but a financial crutch and an emotional whipping-post.

I'll make a deal with the forum: if this post gets at least 10 dislikes in the next week, I'll quit posting here forever.

You are our brother in Christ, you belong with us together and we care about you as does Christ. Don't ever doubt that, reaction score is the most meaningless thing on this forum, we stand behind you as brothers who walk together.

 

[Servant of Christ]

What would you say to someone like myself whose people practice an extremely conservative and traditional form of Catholicism in Aramaic that dates itself to the very beginning. I don't ask contentiously, I'm simply curious as to what you have to say.

I would say, please tell me more about it, it sounds interesting.

 

[FrancisK]

I would say, please tell me more about it, it sounds interesting.

I'm Chaldean, I speak Aramaic our mass is in Aramaic and while we eventually aligned with Rome, for better or worse, our traditions come from the first century which were founded by Jesus and very distinct from modern Catholicism.

 

[analyst_green]

I'm Chaldean, I speak Aramaic our mass is in Aramaic and while we eventually aligned with Rome, for better or worse, our traditions come from the first century which were founded by Jesus and very distinct from modern Catholicism.

I think that would count as Eastern Catholic like the ones in Lebanon, Ukraine, or Greece right? I have a lot of respect for our Eastern Catholic Brothers because outwardly you appear to have almost the same exact praxis and theology as us Orthodox. You still have icons, married priests, no filioque, etc. It is wonderful you've managed to keep these traditions alive.

However, your church is in communion with Rome. You consider the pope to be infallible and the head of the whole church. We consider that the Church is only headed by Jesus Christ and only He is infallible. And that every single Bishop is equal in authority. Which means as far as we're concerned, you are not part of the one holy, Catholic, apostolic church established by Christ's apostles. At some point you separated and joined Rome.

And we hold this fact as much more important than the outward aspects. In fact, there are Western rite Orthodox parishes where the liturgy is served in a style just like in ancient Rome. It looks more like Catholic mass than most Orthodox liturgies. And yet they are still entirely Orthodox because being a part of the Church and shared dogma is what matters, not externals.

Also, Rome innovated certain theological ideas, ideas which we hold to be heresies, 200 years before the great schism. And yet we did not split from Rome even then when they were preaching against what we hold to be Truth. They split from us. The Greeks literally begged the Latins to come back during their final meeting but the Latins refused.

 

[FrancisK]

I think that would count as Eastern Catholic like the ones in Lebanon, Ukraine, or Greece right? I have a lot of respect for our Eastern Catholic Brothers because outwardly you appear to have almost the same exact praxis and theology as us Orthodox. You still have icons, married priests, no filioque, etc. It is wonderful you've managed to keep these traditions alive.

However, your church is in communion with Rome. You consider the pope to be infallible and the head of the whole church. We consider that the Church is only headed by Jesus Christ and only He is infallible. And that every single Bishop is equal in authority. Which means as far as we're concerned, you are not part of the one holy, Catholic, apostolic church established by Christ's apostles. At some point you separated and joined Rome.

And we hold this fact as much more important than the outward aspects. In fact, there are Western rite Orthodox parishes where the liturgy is served in a style just like in ancient Rome. It looks more like Catholic mass than most Orthodox liturgies. And yet they are still entirely Orthodox because being a part of the Church and shared dogma is what matters, not externals.

Also, Rome innovated certain theological ideas, ideas which we hold to be heresies, 200 years before the great schism. And yet we did not split from Rome even then when they were preaching against what we hold to be Truth. They split from us. The Greeks literally begged the Latins to come back during their final meeting but the Latins refused.

We're quite a bit more traditional than them we go back a lot further and take things from the beginning but yea the same in modern name at least. Technically we are the Chaldean Catholic Church we don't conform with any others and our mass is in Aramaic which only we speak.

I sincerely appreciate the words brother and have the utmost respect for my Orthodox brothers, I had no interest in any kind of debate. What I was driving at is that if you're a God fearing good man who does his best to walk with Christ then you are my brother and I accept you as my brother, we walk together. The concept of feeling higher than someone because of my faith, while I certainly could make a un-Christian like claim to, does not come off as correct to me in any form. Save that for the jews and muslims....they deserve each other.

 

[FrancisK]

I’m not that religious but I said a few Hail Marys just now

Edit
All of the right wing speakers that give talks publicly like this need body armor

Eradicator my brother I hope you don't mind I took this from the Charlie Kirk thread I didn't want to go off topic in there but I wanted to come back to this. I'm putting it out in the open because I think there are brothers here who would have a better conversation in regards to this than I would.

So....I take it you were raised Christian. What happened what changed for you?

 

[eradicator]

Eradicator my brother I hope you don't mind I took this from the Charlie Kirk thread I didn't want to go off topic in there but I wanted to come back to this. I'm putting it out in the open because I think there are brothers here who would have a better conversation in regards to this than I would.

So....I take it you were raised Christian. What happened what changed for you?

I did 9 years of private Catholic school as a young lad and hated it. I’ve been to other churches (non catholic) since then as an adult and never really found one that clicked that I wanted to go back to. I do other volunteeeing that’s not church affiliated (ymca and equivalent)

I’m not sure what’s next for me as far as religion

 

[FrancisK]

I did 9 years of private Catholic school as a young lad and hated it. I’ve been to other churches (non catholic) since then as an adult and never really found one that clicked that I wanted to go back to. I do other volunteeeing that’s not church affiliated (ymca and equivalent)

I’m not sure what’s next for me as far as religion

Thanks for replying brother, I guess I'm asking what made you decide you were "agnostic".

 

[analyst_green]

We're quite a bit more traditional than them we go back a lot further and take things from the beginning but yea the same in modern name at least. Technically we are the Chaldean Catholic Church we don't conform with any others and our mass is in Aramaic which only we speak.

I sincerely appreciate the words brother and have the utmost respect for my Orthodox brothers, I had no interest in any kind of debate. What I was driving at is that if you're a God fearing good man who does his best to walk with Christ then you are my brother and I accept you as my brother, we walk together. The concept of feeling higher than someone because of my faith, while I certainly could make a un-Christian like claim to, does not come off as correct to me in any form. Save that for the jews and muslims....they deserve each other.

"For he that is not against us is on our part.
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." - Mark 9:40-41

St. Augustine has some interesting commentaries on this topic explaining the Orthodox view and likely the view of many other Christians.

Mark 9:40 - Catena Bible & Commentaries

For he that is not against us is for us.

catenabible.com

 

[eradicator]

Thanks for replying brother, I guess I'm asking what made you decide you were "agnostic".

Not atheist, not Christian , still believe in God.

 

[FrancisK]

Not atheist, not Christian , still believe in God.

I'm sorry, I thought that agnostic meant that you don't believe either way....as in you're not sure to put in plainly. That's why I wanted to ask after you said you would pray for Kirk.

 

[eradicator]

I'm sorry, I thought that agnostic meant that you don't believe either way....as in you're not sure to put in plainly. That's why I wanted to ask after you said you would pray for Kirk.

I don’t think I’d be really honest if it started calling myself a Christian.

I guess I’d join a church if I was marrying a religious girl and it was a big deal to her . Otherwise I’ll continue to use the term agnostic, unless I start going to a church and want to be involved and then I’d list that affiliation.

 

[Thomas More]

I did 9 years of private Catholic school as a young lad and hated it. I’ve been to other churches (non catholic) since then as an adult and never really found one that clicked that I wanted to go back to. I do other volunteeeing that’s not church affiliated (ymca and equivalent)

I’m not sure what’s next for me as far as religion

I was angry with God for a number of years. He wasn't running things to my satisfaction. However, I eventually realized that's not how it works. This realization didn't come easy, but that's basically what happened.

I always believed in God, but I was caught up in the problem of why does God allow evil, or why is so much of life crappy. I finally accepted that God is real, he created everything and he is in charge, and the opposition (Satan) is as bad as you'd expect. I felt I had no choice but to side with God.

Once I accepted this, I found that the blessings of repenting and surrendering to God are all that people say. It's not easy, but it's worth it. God is real, and submitting to his will does bring peace and joy that are well worth it. This world is a spiritual battle field, and being on God's side is the only way to go.

Once I reached this point, I realized I should go back to Church. I ended up finding a Church that is Godly, and it provides me with a strong fellowship of believers, which is so important. It's clear to me that God led me in this direction. It is incredible to realize God is working in my life personally like this.

I have made other Christian friends outside of my Church as well, who are a tremendous blessing. Going back to church, and building relationships with as many Christians as possible is the best life strategy I can recommend.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'm not even saying the guys who'd do the endless fighting with other types of Christians are necessarily wrong. Maybe God does care deeply about which branch you choose and maybe if you choose wrong or just refuse to choose like me, you are putting your eternal soul in peril. Who knows. I don't.

I don't think you need to become a Calvinist to get saved. God's grace is greater than the labels we put on it. That said, the time will come when you will seriously wrestle with these questions. I am not a member of a church that I agree with doctrinally 100%. Nor do I feel that I need to be. My church needs me and I need them.

If your commitment is to believe what the original Christians, the Apostles, believed, then you will end up as some sort of classical Protestant because you will cling to their writings, the Bible, as your ultimate reference point.

If you are more interested in how the Church developed, especially during the medieval ages, then you will end up as some form of Sacerdotalist. Whether that's Roman Catholicism, or one of the many variants of Orthodoxy. All of which claim to be "the one, true church."

The debates we have won't answer all your questions. There is some internal examination on your part that still needs to be done concerning where your convictions really lay.

 

[Servant of Christ]

If you are more interested in how the Church developed, especially during the medieval ages, then you will end up as some form of Sacerdotalist. Whether that's Roman Catholicism, or one of the many variants of Orthodoxy. All of which claim to be "the one, true church."

I think this is one of the ways so many people allow themselves to be deceived. They say something like "well surely they can't all be the one true Church, and I can't figure out which one that is, or maybe none of them really are, so therefore there isn't one or maybe it doesn't really matter which church I belong to, as long as I read the Bible and love God". Or "maybe I don't even need a church at all, I can just ask Jesus to save me and I'm good to go, one and done". Some people don't even think you need to be baptized. They will also use the Bible to justify this belief, but where do you think the Bible comes from?

Now think for a second.

People say the same things about the various religions in the world and they use that "logic" to attack Christianity by saying "yeah, sure, your religion out of hundreds in the world is the only real one, and everyone else is wrong, yeah right", and then so many write off religion completely, or join some froot loop "church" or follow some kind of pagan lifestyle. It's the same exact logical fallacy, I hope you can see that. Everything is not subjective and relative. Sometimes there is one correct answer.

It's very important to remember the evil one is very good at what he does and has been doing it for a long time. If he can destroy us in sin he will, but if he can merely confuse and lead us away from truth he will happily settle for that. He plays upon our ignorance and arrogance and pride in thinking we know better and can figure things out all by ourselves, or that God needs to come to us on our terms. Many think we don't need a church at all, or it's optional, and they ignore the centuries of writings and wisdom of the Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers and act like it doesn't apply to them. This is also what leads to so many branches of protestantism.

Here's the truth: Christ came and he founded one Church and that is the Orthodox Church. If you aren't in that Church, where are you? Why would you choose to be anywhere else, separate from Christ and His body? How is that going to benefit you or anyone else spiritually? How will you justify that to Christ on judgment day?