Bitcoin and Crypto Thread

The question is do you believe Bitcoin is a form of money? If the answer is yes then by definition money should not generate a return as that would be inflationary.
Things I believe are money:

- Cash
- Bitcoin
- Real Estate
- Apple stock
- Microsoft stock
- Any other stock
- Gold

They are all money in my opinion. In a way, all 5 can generate cash flow.

All of these things can be lent out or borrowed against, with varying levels of sanity.

I disagree with the premises of your question. All forms of money can and do generate returns.
 
Gold does not generate a return by the way.
Yeah, but, it's value increases(slowly) against all fiat currencies. If you have a truckload of gold, you can borrow against it. If you do that at the right time, the gold inflates in value, the debt deflates. Use that to purchase other fun assets like real estate.

Same thing with a stock portfolio; borrow against it to buy a house.

Same thing with bitcoin. Borrow against it with an inflationary currency, buy a house, live life...etc. Don't pay taxes on your capital gains.

Gold is the best analogy to bitcoin.
 
Gold is nothing like bitcoin. Most people in this thread don't understand gold.

Gold is money because it has secondary use cases. Bitcoin has no secondary use cases- you can only send it to people. Ironically, gold's use cases seem to be increasing over time as technology evolves. NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope was launched in 2021 and it contains gold plated mirrors. Gold is also being used by Nvidia to create their microchips that power AI.

Why gold? This metal is extremely reflective of both visible light and other forms of radiation, particularly in the infrared range. The gold coating optimizes the function of these mirrors. Our basic silver and aluminum mirrors here on Earth reflect 85-95% of infrared light, whereas gold reflects 99%. Gold is also relatively un-reactive, so it won’t tarnish easily. Source.

GPU microchips are made with gold as well as other metals like minum, silicon, gold, and copper because of their useful conductive properties. Of course, the monetary value of gold provides an incentive to minimize its use, but the chemical properties of gold remain so useful that manufacturers continue to use gold in chips and sometimes in internal computer wiring and switches despite their cost. As competition for the best GPUs heats up and the price of GPUs is likely going to rise due to advances in artificial intelligence, the cost of the metal in GPUs will become less relevant to the overall cost of gold. This means that manufacturers can use more gold in their products without dramatically increasing the cost of their GPUs and other products. Source.
 
Gold is nothing like bitcoin. Most people in this thread don't understand gold.

Gold is money because it has secondary use cases.

Secondary use cases do not cause money to exist nor are they prerequisites for money.

Things become money because they have specific properties that make them better as money than other things that could be used as money.

USD has no secondary use case, yet it is by far the most dominant money.
 
Secondary use cases do not cause money to exist nor are they prerequisites for money.

Yes they do. Money needs to have a secondary use case or be backed by a useful asset (gold) in order to to sustain itself.

USD has no secondary use case, yet it is by far the most dominant money.

It is for now, but most people know that it's not sustainable long-term. Fiat money is never sustainable long term. Bitcoin is essentially a fiat form of currency because it isn't backed by anything.
 
Yes they do. Money needs to have a secondary use case or be backed by a useful asset (gold) in order to to sustain itself.



It is for now, but most people know that it's not sustainable long-term. Fiat money is never sustainable long term. Bitcoin is essentially a fiat form of currency because it isn't backed by anything.
What is gold backed by?

How does gold backing sustain a currency?

Why did gold backed currencies destroy silver backed currencies? They are both useful metals (silver has more uses.)

What was the secondary use case of Rai stones on Yap island?
 
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What is gold backed by?

Nothing. It's a valuable asset with use cases so it doesn't need to be backed by anything.

How does gold backing sustain a currency?

Gold itself is sustainable and people would have the option to redeem their paper notes for gold.

Why did gold backed currencies destroy silver backed currencies? They are both useful metals (silver has more uses.)

There is probably a way to integrate both in the same system. Silver is great for coins.

Gold is better to use because of its efficiency. The price is more stable. The price is also much higher, so fewer ounces need to be stored by banks.

What was the secondary use case of Rai stones on Yap island?

Maybe there wasn't any other option. I'm not sure. I would need to do more research on that topic.
 
Nothing. It's a valuable asset with use cases so it doesn't need to be backed by anything.
it is valued as money. Most gold ever mined by humanity sits unused in vaults. Oil is very useful, and it doesn’t sit around long before being used. The majority of gold is never, and will never be used for anything except as money (which is the most useful, most desired good by definition: money)
Gold itself is sustainable and people would have the option to redeem their paper notes for gold.
Why is it sustainable as money? Because it has properties that reinforce its credibility as money. Gold has to be mined, at great cost to human time. It can’t be destroyed, doesn’t degrade, and is economically dense (rare). If alchemy were ever successful, the value of gold as money would disappear. It would no longer be able to enforce its monetary rules.

Paper money was backed by gold to give it credibility as money. Paper money can be created costlessly, therefore is not a credible money unless it is exchangeable for something that does have a physical restraint on counterfeiting. For centuries people tried via alchemy, but gold continued to enforce its monetary policy.
There is probably a way to integrate both in the same system. Silver is great for coins.

Gold is better to use because of its efficiency. The price is more stable. The price is also much higher, so fewer ounces need to be stored by banks.
Gold is economically dense as money. A prison wallet can probably hold 10 oz of gold…you could get $20k USD worth across a border, if they don’t do a cavity search.
Bitcoin is inifinitely dense. The neurons in your brain can hold $billions in value, all massless. With Bitcoin, every single aspect of gold is improved on, exponentially.
Maybe there wasn't any other option. I'm not sure. I would need to do more research on that topic.
My thesis is money becomes such because of its specific properties that make it good at being money, not tertiary properties that have nothing to do with functioning as money.
 
Most gold ever mined by humanity sits unused in vaults.

It's only stored in vaults because it has value derived from its secondary use cases. But it seems we are going back and forth here so it's not really worth discussing this topic further.

With Bitcoin, every single aspect of gold is improved on, exponentially.

I don't see it that way at all. But could I see a gold backed cryptocurrency working? Yes I could.


My thesis is money becomes such because of its specific properties that make it good at being money, not tertiary properties that have nothing to do with functioning as money.

I don't think Yap island is a good example. I think any type of money could work on a small island for at least a short time frame.

A better modern example would be prisons where cigarettes as sometimes used as money.
 
Things I believe are money:

- Cash
- Bitcoin
- Real Estate
- Apple stock
- Microsoft stock
- Any other stock
- Gold

They are all money in my opinion. In a way, all 5 can generate cash flow.

All of these things can be lent out or borrowed against, with varying levels of sanity.

I disagree with the premises of your question. All forms of money can and do generate returns.
When you say Apple or Microsoft stock, are you saying they’re reliable assets that won’t lose too much value?
 
It's only stored in vaults because it has value derived from its secondary use cases. But it seems we are going back and forth here so it's not really worth discussing this topic further.
So why isn’t 90% of crude oil stored forever?
I don't see it that way at all. But could I see a gold backed cryptocurrency working? Yes I could.
Again, gold does not require backing because it is physically limited and costly to produce…Bitcoin does not require backing for the exact same reasons! A gold backed cryptocurrency does not solve an existing problem. Where trust is necessary, it can be, and will be, exploited.

Backing a currency with gold (or anything else) requires trust. Do you trust the government or banks? Using real gold (or bitcoin) does not require trust.
I don't think Yap island is a good example. I think any type of money could work on a small island for at least a short time frame.
No one knows how long they were used exactly, but many hundreds if not thousands of years.
Only the best money becomes or stays money…it’s not random.
A better modern example would be prisons where cigarettes as sometimes used as money.
It’s not a good example for the point I’m trying to convey, which is money can exist that has no other use except as money. Rai stones demonstrate this perfectly.
 
“Some of these rocks required hundreds of people to transport them, and once they arrived on Yap, they were placed in a prominent location where everyone could see them. The owner of the stone could use it as a payment method without it having to move: all that would happen is that the owner would announce to all townsfolk that the stone's ownership has now moved to the recipient. The whole town would recognize the ownership of the stone and the recipient could then use it to make a payment whenever he so pleased. There was effectively no way of stealing the stone because its ownership was known by everybody.”

“ While the stones never moved, they had salability across space, as one could use them for payment anywhere on the island. The different sizes of the different stones provided some degree of salability across scales, as did the possibility of paying with fractions of a single stone. The stones' salability across time was assured for centuries by the difficulty and high cost of acquiring new stones, because they didn't exist in Yap and quarrying and shipping them from Palau was not easy. The very high cost of procuring new stones to Yap meant that the existing supply of stones was always far larger than whatever new supply could be produced at a given period of time, making it prudent to accept them as a form of payment. In other words, Rai stones had a very high stock‐to‐flow ratio, and no matter how desirable they were, it was not easy for anyone to inflate the supply of stones by bringing in new rocks.”

Excerpt From
The Bitcoin Standard
Saifedean Ammous
 
So why isn’t 90% of crude oil stored forever?
There isn't a need to because gold is better form of money. You can just store gold and buy oil with gold.

Backing a currency with gold (or anything else) requires trust. Do you trust the government or banks? Using real gold (or bitcoin) does not require trust.

Do you believe in capitalism? Trusting third parties is the fundamental pillar of capitalism. You would obviously need to trust the company that issues the gold-backed currency.

It’s not a good example for the point I’m trying to convey, which is money can exist that has no other use except as money. Rai stones demonstrate this perfectly.

I don't think your example of a small island using essentially a fiat currency proves anything.
 
Do you believe in capitalism? Trusting third parties is the fundamental pillar of capitalism. You would obviously need to trust the company that issues the gold-backed currency.
Trusting third parties makes transactions more efficient when trust is high. Trust is certainly not a requirement of trade or capitalism. Most of the world doesn’t trust China, but they still trade with China…they won’t be accepting any yuan as payment though.

Credit requires trust. Money allows trade between people or groups without trust. Credit works well in places or times of high trust. What do we use when trust is low? Government paper or anything backed by something else is just credit with another name. Using actual money, instead of a receipt for the promise of money, is required when trust between the parties involved is low.

Backing a cryptocurrency (or any currency) with gold requires centralization of that gold, resulting in the exploitation of the trust required in a backed currency. It has happened every time in history, from Roman coin clipping, to executive order 6102, to the Nixon shock. The users of currency trust, and are eventually exploited by the recipients of that trust.

This is why gold failed in the 20th century. To be transacted as efficiently as was necessary in a global economy, it had to be centralized into banks, then central banks.
I don't think your example of a small island using essentially a fiat currency proves anything.
It wasn’t fiat, it was emergent, like every other money in history.
 
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Trump to propose making Bitcoin a strategic reserve asset.


Link is from yesterday but just heard confirmation on Varney & Co., and that he'll announce the proposal at Bitcoin 2024 in Nashville next week.
I don’t think this is likely, but I was wrong about the ETF approval.
 
Are you currently mining alph cynllo?

No. Just seems better to buy. I mined LTC in 2013 and fried my graphics card. That was the end of that.

A smaller company Goldshell has just delivered ASICs. They are 720GH/s and the hashrate just had a huge spike. And by the time the first batch are setup BITMAIN will come online and send the hashrate up multiple PH/s. Another company Iceriver has just announced ASICs for ALPH.

It has, either live or in development - 6 DEXs, 2 NFT marketplaces, a social media site, a domain name system, a coin mixer, gaming platforms, and several active memes. It was at $80m a few days ago.

ALPH is the top performing coin in the top 500 right now. Up 90% in 2-3 days.
 
No. Just seems better to buy. I mined LTC in 2013 and fried my graphics card. That was the end of that.

A smaller company Goldshell has just delivered ASICs. They are 720GH/s and the hashrate just had a huge spike. And by the time the first batch are setup BITMAIN will come online and send the hashrate up multiple PH/s. Another company Iceriver has just announced ASICs for ALPH.

It has, either live or in development - 6 DEXs, 2 NFT marketplaces, a social media site, a domain name system, a coin mixer, gaming platforms, and several active memes. It was at $80m a few days ago.

ALPH is the top performing coin in the top 500 right now. Up 90% in 2-3 days.

Yes I’m extremely happy to be holding alph
 
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