The Veneration of The Virgin Mary, Mother of God
- Thread starter WoodArch4033
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I find it very interesting how the Panagia has unveiled herself in my life, because it is very different to how God revealled Himself to me. The experience that converted me, very much came with a sense of "look at how much of a sinner you are" very masculine and fatherly.
With Our Lady it was very much an emotional and intuitive thing, more feminine. When I first converted I had a bit of a hard time with the Theotokos because of a hangover from my Protestant upbringing. I was trying to intellectualize things. But the moment I "got it" was when I encountered Protestants downplaying the Theotokos to a mere happenstance bit part in the incarnation, in disrespect for who she truly is. I was upset in much the same way as if someone insulted my mother. Then I knew despite my intellectualizing and struggles in that regard, I love her.
Ever since then, I have felt her influence in a similar fashion. For instance when I was blessed to go to Mount Athos, after only a couple of years of being Orthodox. My strong sense was she was there saying "I did this for you, I got you here." I'm not saying I had a grand experience or vision or anything, I just subtly knew it, just like I knew that I love her when I got upset by people putting her down.
With Our Lady it was very much an emotional and intuitive thing, more feminine. When I first converted I had a bit of a hard time with the Theotokos because of a hangover from my Protestant upbringing. I was trying to intellectualize things. But the moment I "got it" was when I encountered Protestants downplaying the Theotokos to a mere happenstance bit part in the incarnation, in disrespect for who she truly is. I was upset in much the same way as if someone insulted my mother. Then I knew despite my intellectualizing and struggles in that regard, I love her.
Ever since then, I have felt her influence in a similar fashion. For instance when I was blessed to go to Mount Athos, after only a couple of years of being Orthodox. My strong sense was she was there saying "I did this for you, I got you here." I'm not saying I had a grand experience or vision or anything, I just subtly knew it, just like I knew that I love her when I got upset by people putting her down.
I was unprepared for how upset my Protestant family and friends would get regarding the topic of veneration of The Theotokos. I have had a lot of family and friends interested in my conversion lately. Everything is civil until I explain why The Theotokos is honored in the Orthodox Church. The way they have mocked her is very upsetting, especially when they question why she is called “Ever-Virgin” and “Most Holy”. They always respond, “She’s no better than us.” Lord have mercy!
Although it's easy to interpret this as disrespect (and oftentimes, it probably is, especially as part of rhetoric designed to provoke Orthodox/Catholic opponents), I think that on a deeper level it's reflective of the notions of egalitarianism intrinsic to virtually all forms of Protestantism.
In the Protestant paradigm there's really no notion of degrees of holiness or sanctity, you're either Saved or Damned. So saying that somebody should be venerated just doesn't make sense in their spiritual worldview because salvation is a legal status which is divorced from behavior and one's sanctity (or lack thereof.) When that's their paradigm, it's like trying to convince a loincloth-clad Amazonian tribesman that snow and polar bears exist. But I don't think it's overstating things to say that sometimes these harsh reactions may be the instinctive response of those who feel threatened, on a subconscious level or not, of what all this represents.
Where it gets really interesting is considering how much this sort of spiritual egalitarianism parallels with notions of egalitarianism in Western Civilization, and their extreme endpoint in the rhetoric of the Social Justice Warrior and all the talk about "equity" and equal outcomes. I think you could make an interesting argument that this is the ultimate endpoint of notions of egalitarianism that emerged in the Reformation and philosophical movements that followed in its wake.
On a more practical level, this type of objection is pretty silly because these stakes are higher for the Mother of God than anybody else called by God. What girl wouldn't immediately fear being considered a whore and adulteress, as it could easily appear to the outside world, if she the virgin conceives? There's a very high likelihood you'd just get stoned to death for adultery per the Mosaic law, and at the very least, kiss your comfortable arrangement for Joseph to marry/provide for you goodbye. Best case scenario, everybody considers you a whore the rest of your life and whatever honor and place in society you have is turned to shame. Without an astounding level of faith in God, Mary would have immediately run the other way, regarding the angel's tidings as bad indeed. Instead, she wholeheartedly embraces the call. Compare to all those people elsewhere in Scripture - Jonah, Zechariah, Sarah, Gideon, to name a few - who react incredulously to far less precipitous tidings than this. On the basis of the Scriptural texts alone, it's quite obvious that Mary is special indeed, if you have the eyes to see it.
Why are you getting upset at people not understanding why you believe as you do, could it be that as a catachumen, you're unable to easily convey why you believe what you do in a calm manner, and if you are doing this, if they want to clutch at pearls that's really their choice, and you have to respect their decision even if you don't like it.
Personally, when I'm around protestants I don't use the titles "Ever-Virgin" or "Most Holy". I only refer to the Virgin Mary as the "Theotokos, the Mother of God" in a repetitive manner and let them stew on it. When they protest, ask "What's the problem? Do you not think Jesus is God?"
Read the life of the Virgin Mary, read St John Maximovitch's "On the Veneration of the Mother of God", and as you grow in appreciation of her, you'll be more easily able to explain why you believe what you do, and as work to grow in Orthodoxy you'll be able to do it calmly, and these things won't upset you as much.
Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding as I’m not a catechumen. I do explain my beliefs in a calm manner. I didn’t elaborate because I didn’t want to type some of the horrible things my family and friends have said about The Theotokos. I suppose the reason it is upsetting is because I would be upset if someone were speaking this way about my mother.
Yeah bearing and raising God incarnate is no biggie really
These women feel very threatened and guilty by the mere mention of a virgin.
Even growing up in the Lutheran church I was upset as a child about the lack of veneration and respect shown to the Virgin Mary and the Saints. It wasn't any sort of mockery at all, it was just the total forgetting of her and them that upset me greatly. She was mentioned at Christmas and a little bit at Easter and that is about it. As if she was just a passing figure in the life of Christ. May we always remember our Holy Theotokos and ask for her intercession, because she listens and she has Christ's ear.