The rapture

[GoodShepherd]

I see we dont have a thread here yet about the rapture, feel free to chime in. I know in the Orthodox church we dont believe in the rapture and its quite a modern doctrine that started in America by protestants, if someone could refresh my memory I think it was the Jewish guy Mr Scoefield with his Bible commentary? I grew up protestant so we were taught the rapture, the ONLY protestant I ever heard of that didnt believe in the rapture was Kobus Van Rensburg and I attended his Church for some time many many years ago.

 

[italianstallion9]

From my understanding, this modern day rapture theology comes from Scofield and John Darby. It's also where we get pre-trib millenialism. It's amazing how 1-2 people can create a concept, it goes viral, and a plurality of a nation's population adheres to it.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'm not convinced of it one way or the other. I need to look into the arguments for both for and against. If you held a gun to my head, I would lean in favor of it.

The Rapture only makes sense in a premillenial schema. So postmillenialists and amillenialists are not going to teach it.

@italianstallion9
I'm becoming more skeptical of the claims that pin it all on the Schofield Bible. There could be something to it, but if you read the earliest extra-Biblical material, such as the ending of the Didache, the section where it speaks on eschatology sounds far more premillenialist than anything else.

The Didache, Chapter 16:

3. For in the last days the false prophets and destroyers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate. 4. For when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute, and deliver up one another; and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God [Antichrist], and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall commit iniquities which have never yet come to pass from the beginning of the world. 5. And then shall the race of men come into the fire of trial [Tribulation], and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself [Rapture?]. 6. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first the sign of opening in heaven; then the sign of the voice of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead. 7. Not, however, of all, [no general resurrection of the dead] but as was said, "The Lord shall come, and all the saints with him." 8. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

 

[Thomas More]

I was raised to believe in the rapture, and still do. I can't help see the rapture in a number of texts, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Personally, when I think of the rapture, I think of being caught up to meet Christ in the air. Furthermore, beside the whole flying up into the air bit, this is The Second Coming of Christ, and this is The Resurrection! This is when it happens! I believe in the second coming of Christ and I believe in the Resurrection, so I believe in the rapture.

Now I will say that while I have been raised to be pre-trib, I have always understood that mid-trib and post-trib positions also exist. One of those might be accurate. However regardless of the timing, I definitely believe Christ will return, and we will be caught up to meet him in the air, and will receive our resurrection bodies at that time.

Frankly it is hard for me to see how other Christians can not believe in the rapture, since that is also the second coming and the resurrection. These are the essential doctrines of Christianity. This is our hope in Christ.

 

[fortyfive]

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
• Luke 17:34-37: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left."
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."

 

[Samseau]

From my understanding, this modern day rapture theology comes from Scofield and John Darby. It's also where we get pre-trib millenialism. It's amazing how 1-2 people can create a concept, it goes viral, and a plurality of a nation's population adheres to it.

Judging from this picture it seems like "rapture" is different than the second coming aka Judgement Day.

As an Orthodox I don't know what any of this stuff is, except that Christ will return like Paul says and lay down the Law.

 

[Thomas More]

Judging from this picture it seems like "rapture" is different than the second coming aka Judgement Day.

As an Orthodox I don't know what any of this stuff is, except that Christ will return like Paul says and lay down the Law.

The tribulation is when the anti-Christ appears, just before the second coming of Christ.

I know there are a variety of theories on this as well, including some who say the tribulation occurred when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I was taught to expect the tribulation is yet to come, as part of the end times that Christ prophesied would happen before he returned.

 

[Maddox]

The tribulation is when the anti-Christ appears, just before the second coming of Christ.

I know there are a variety of theories on this as well, including some who say the tribulation occurred when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I was taught to expect the tribulation is yet to come, as part of the end times that Christ prophesied would happen before he returned.

Ah...you're talking about Preterism. It's an interesting theory and I found the following videos on the subject which explain everything in detail:

The TimeLine Deception Part 1​

The TimeLine Deception Part 2​

 

[JCSteel]

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

One typological argument in favor of the Rapture is that God always spares His Elect from His Wrath.

When God flooded the world, He sealed Noah in the Ark.
When God rained Hell on Sodom and Gomorrah, He took Lot out of the city.
When Egypt was plagued, the Hebrews were spared the plagues.
...
When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians had already fled because of Jesus' prophecies.

See the pattern?

 

[GoodShepherd]

From my understanding, this modern day rapture theology comes from Scofield and John Darby. It's also where we get pre-trib millenialism. It's amazing how 1-2 people can create a concept, it goes viral, and a plurality of a nation's population adheres to it.

Although Scofield was 1 guy he released a bible called the Scofield bible so I dont think anything is wrong with the bible that Im aware of, the problem is the commentary, its his commentary that was so influential because a lot of people owned a copy of his Bible and obviously read the commentary, his bible is also responsible for Christian zionism as we dont see this doctrine being believed before the 1800's. The protestant preacher here in South Africa Kobus Van Rensburg was the first that I heard in my protestant days talk against the rapture and the Jews so the other protestants didnt like him much, his dead now

 

[GoodShepherd]

I'm not convinced of it one way or the other. I need to look into the arguments for both for and against. If you held a gun to my head, I would lean in favor of it.

The Rapture only makes sense in a premillenial schema. So postmillenialists and amillenialists are not going to teach it.

@italianstallion9
I'm becoming more skeptical of the claims that pin it all on the Schofield Bible. There could be something to it, but if you read the earliest extra-Biblical material, such as the ending of the Didache, the section where it speaks on eschatology sounds far more premillenialist than anything else.

The Didache, Chapter 16:

So this sounds ok because clearly the church has to endure the great tribulations, the false rapture is like in the movie left behind, its false hope the church has always had to go through hard times and tribulations so we better start preparing ourselves

 

[GoodShepherd]

I was raised to believe in the rapture, and still do. I can't help see the rapture in a number of texts, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.



Personally, when I think of the rapture, I think of being caught up to meet Christ in the air. Furthermore, beside the whole flying up into the air bit, this is The Second Coming of Christ, and this is The Resurrection! This is when it happens! I believe in the second coming of Christ and I believe in the Resurrection, so I believe in the rapture.

Now I will say that while I have been raised to be pre-trib, I have always understood that mid-trib and post-trib positions also exist. One of those might be accurate. However regardless of the timing, I definitely believe Christ will return, and we will be caught up to meet him in the air, and will receive our resurrection bodies at that time.

Frankly it is hard for me to see how other Christians can not believe in the rapture, since that is also the second coming and the resurrection. These are the essential doctrines of Christianity. This is our hope in Christ.

I hear you but the rapture as we know it today like the movie left behind is a very new doctrine and the old church never taught it like this, even modern Orthodox prophesies like Saint Paisios he never mentions how the church will be taken away he speaks in a way that we shall be here on earth facing these trials and even gave some advice on homesteading because he said it will be impossible to live or buy anything without the mark of the beast but says its only for 3+ years so its not a long time, just to show you the thoughts of Christianity from the old church, yes Im sure we gonna meet the Lord in the air and all that Im not against that at all but this idea that we gonna escape pain and troubles is harmful to people we must always expect tribulations as Christians

 

[GoodShepherd]

I receive and accept all of the Bible

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

So this sounds ok because clearly the church has to endure the great tribulations, the false rapture is like in the movie left behind, its false hope the church has always had to go through hard times and tribulations so we better start preparing ourselves

It says the faithful are saved from under the curse, not that they are being cursed along with everyone else in the Tribulation.

 

[GoodShepherd]

The tribulation is when the anti-Christ appears, just before the second coming of Christ.

I know there are a variety of theories on this as well, including some who say the tribulation occurred when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. I was taught to expect the tribulation is yet to come, as part of the end times that Christ prophesied would happen before he returned.

Iv also heard that theory that the tribulation has already happened in AD70 that preacher Kobus Van Rensburg also taught that, I dont find old Christians teaching this though and they always pointing forward to later days, where is saint Augustine from the 3rd century mentioning this so called great tribulation or Eusabius in his book Church history where he talks about the first 3 centuries of Christianity, I read the part about the destruction of the temple it was horrible what people went through and how they ate each other sometimes and the starvation etc but I dont remember Eusabius saying this was the great tribulation, Andrew Torba from GAB also seems to hold this view he wrote an article about it, the Orthodox Church doesnt hold this view though

 

[GoodShepherd]

It says the faithful are saved from under the curse, not that they are being cursed along with everyone else in the Tribulation.

But at the end not before, the anti Christ will be persecuting the Church thats the whole point about it

 

[GoodShepherd]

One typological argument in favor of the Rapture is that God always spares His Elect from His Wrath.

When God flooded the world, He sealed Noah in the Ark.
When God rained Hell on Sodom and Gomorrah, He took Lot out of the city.
When Egypt was plagued, the Hebrews were spared the plagues.
...
When Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians had already fled because of Jesus' prophecies.

See the pattern?

The Tribulation will be the wrath of satan on the church though thats why we need to resist the mark and throughout church history the church has gone through many tribulations, look at the first 3 centuries of Christianity the Christians suffered really badly you cant even make a movie about their tortures they are to bad to see

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

The Tribulation will be the wrath of satan on the church though

Normally, the Tribulation is understood to be the Wrath of God poured out on the world (Revelation 6:16). It doesn't make much sense for God to have His Church in the world suffering His Wrath and His curses.

Matthew 24:31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

How do you understand this?

 

[GoodShepherd]

Normally, the Tribulation is understood to be the Wrath of God poured out on the world (Revelation 6:16). It doesn't make much sense for God to have His Church in the world suffering His Wrath and His curses.


How do you understand this?

When the anti Christ is ruling the world he will make life difficult for Christians, when I was a protestant I even heard from speakers like Dr Chuck Missler who in my opinion was quite a well informed smart guy that the first 3 and a half years of the great tribulation is the wrath of the anti Christ against the world then the 2nd half of the tribulation Gods wrath against the anti Christ and his people.

The teachings in the bible and of the church is for us to always be watchful, prayerful, have endurance, for us not to lose our faith, not to bend our knee to satan and the world etc we are not taught that we will be taken away from our troubles we have to face them with Gods help and overcome it, I remember reading about monks from centuries past who wished they could have been alive in our time so they could struggle during these days of the great tribulation, at least when the day comes we also have something positive to look towards that its almost time for us to meet God and expect the return of Christ!