The Living Off of Cryptocurrency Thread (Parallel/Circular Economies outside the system)

[Based_Christian_Dude]

Does living outside the system mean not paying taxes? Planning on renouncing citizenship and leaving?
I do not see how transactions done in crypto are free from eyes of the irs. Of course many will try, and some may succeed, but the irs loves making examples of people that think they can outsmart or outrun the system.
Consider the possibilities of cash and barter. At least this is done privately and not on a public, distributed ledger.
We will miss using cash sooner than later.

There's no explicit congressional ruling on Cryptocurrency as tender (and of course taxes upon it) that I know of; that's why Elizabeth Warren is pushing anti-crypto legislation as the Chevron Deference case was overturned. The IRS will only go after you if you're trying to Forex trade crypto for capital gains in fiat. Of course, there's debates on whether Income Tax for individuals are actually constitutional, but that's for a different thread that I already made. Also, renouncing US citizenship is a scam. Look at what happened to Roger Ver after he did that. You're better off just acquiring a few passports from corrupt countries outside of Interpol and then getting the passport from a country you truly want with no mention of US citizenshipand disposing your US passport.

Anyways, I recommend Monero as a form of digital cash over Bitcoin for its private blockchain and better scalability for mass-transactions, cheaper transaction fees included.

 

[Myrzik3]

 

[GoodShepherd]

View attachment 11451

What exactly is a digital asset? They didnt actually use the words crypto currency so what is their definition of a digital asset?

To me a whores only fans page might count as a digital asset

 

[Based_Christian_Dude]

View attachment 11451

What exactly is a digital asset? They didnt actually use the words crypto currency so what is their definition of a digital asset?

To me a whores only fans page might count as a digital asset

They just want to know if you have anything outside "the system" so they can add you on a potential list and correlate any transactions for potential auditing purposes (this is why globalhomo is going crazy over the Chevron Deference support case recently). It's basically snitching on yourself. If you openly display and declare you own a crypto and lie on the 1040, then it's illegal.

See this video where the guy explains it around the 8:13 mark. I highly recommend you watch the whole talk.

 

[Myrzik3]

Crypto is certainly a digital asset. This is America, if you make money you pay tax. Income from staking or mining is “award or payment” and have their own tax rates. The question on the 1040 is asking if you generated a taxable event, sell/trade/exchange are taxable events.

Alternatively, If one were in a divorce proceeding, a judge would certainly have power to subpoena your physical and electronic records in the discovery process.

Could one lie in either scenario, of course, but I would not recommend this as the consistencies can be severe.

Blessed feast day.

 

[GoodShepherd]

Crypto is certainly a digital asset. This is America, if you make money you pay tax. Income from staking or mining is “award or payment” and have their own tax rates. The question on the 1040 is asking if you generated a taxable event, sell/trade/exchange are taxable events.

Alternatively, If one were in a divorce proceeding, a judge would certainly have power to subpoena your physical and electronic records in the discovery process.

Could one lie in either scenario, of course, but I would not recommend this as the consistencies can be severe.

Blessed feast day.

Well what if you have a job and get a salary thats already been taxed and then you put your money thats already been taxed into Bitcoin? Is that now an asset? Is that double taxed? What about cash payments do people declare that? No. So does the government actually acknowledge that Bitcoin is money? Im sure there are people who could make the argument that Bitcoin is not money therefore it cant be taxed, what is the US definition of money or currency? I dont think you can just tick a yes or no option on a form its a very complicated question, I would add an extra option to tick (I dont understand your question)

 

[GoodShepherd]

They just want to know if you have anything outside "the system" so they can add you on a potential list and correlate any transactions for potential auditing purposes (this is why globalhomo is going crazy over the Chevron Deference support case recently). It's basically snitching on yourself. If you openly display and declare you own a crypto and lie on the 1040, then it's illegal.

See this video where the guy explains it around the 8:13 mark. I highly recommend you watch the whole talk.

If someone pays me with logs of wood or cattle, do I have to pay tax on that? What is the definition of "money" according to US law? I dont think Bitcoin counts as money only when you sell it and get money for it can it be called money? Like with the logs of wood and cattle only once I sell those items into cash then it can be taxed thats the way I understand it?

 

[Australia Sucks]

If someone pays me with logs of wood or cattle, do I have to pay tax on that? What is the definition of "money" according to US law? I dont think Bitcoin counts as money only when you sell it and get money for it can it be called money? Like with the logs of wood and cattle only once I sell those items into cash then it can be taxed thats the way I understand it?

If I am not mistaken you live in South Africa right? So why do you care so much about U.S.A. tax laws?

 

[GoodShepherd]

If I am not mistaken you live in South Africa right? So why do you care so much about U.S.A. tax laws?

If you are Australian whu do you care about what woman you can bang in eastern Europe?

We can apply it to SA, what is the current definition of money In South Africa and all the countries in the world? Is cattle money? Can we pay our taxes with cows can we go to the government department of South Africa and pay our tax with a cow? Does South Africa and the rest of the world acknowledge bitcoin as money?

 

[Australia Sucks]

We can apply it to SA, what is the current definition of money In South Africa and all the countries in the world?

That is the whole point I was trying to make. Different countries have different laws and thus have different definitions of what legally constitutes money, what constitutes a taxable event, what constitutes a sale, etc. Hence what can be applied to U.S.A. cannot be applied to South Africa.

 

[GoodShepherd]

That is the whole point I was trying to make. Different countries have different laws and thus have different definitions of what legally constitutes money, what constitutes a taxable event, what constitutes a sale, etc. Hence what can be applied to U.S.A. cannot be applied to South Africa.

They all very similar and I happen to also have a very good private reason to be interested in the US laws.

There are people in South Africa who actually use cattle as money, for example, when certain people get married its the custom to pay the father of the bride with a certain amount of cows for his daughter, those cows are not recognized by the government as money as far as I know and therefore it cant be taxed and neither would the tax return department accept a cow as payment because its not money, my argument is that I dont think Bitcoin is recognized by the government at money either its like the cows its like a barter and trade system that private individuals use between themselves, maybe @chance vought could shed some more light on this

 

[chance vought]

They all very similar and I happen to also have a very good private reason to be interested in the US laws.

There are people in South Africa who actually use cattle as money, for example, when certain people get married its the custom to pay the father of the bride with a certain amount of cows for his daughter, those cows are not recognized by the government as money as far as I know and therefore it cant be taxed and neither would the tax return department accept a cow as payment because its not money, my argument is that I dont think Bitcoin is recognized by the government at money either its like the cows its like a barter and trade system that private individuals use between themselves, maybe @chance vought could shed some more light on this

Yes you are taxed again if you sell something you bought for a profit, including bitcoin. The government loves to say bitcoin is worthless, but you better pay up, boi!

Technically American citizens that are not government workers that earn domestically derived income are not required to pay income tax. The income tax only applies to resident aliens, and citizens earning foreign derived income, and government employees. Most citizens do in fact pay income tax because employers force you to fill out a form called a W-9 which in turn obligates you to file a 1040, which declares yourself a taxpayer under penalty of perjury.

Dave Champion has a podcast and a book about US tax law, and 99% of Americans shouldn’t be paying income tax.

TLDR: you get double and triple taxed, yes, unless you can avoid filing a 1040 (easiest if it’s a small company, you own the company, self employed etc, and a US citizen)

 

[Based_Christian_Dude]

If someone pays me with logs of wood or cattle, do I have to pay tax on that? What is the definition of "money" according to US law? I dont think Bitcoin counts as money only when you sell it and get money for it can it be called money? Like with the logs of wood and cattle only once I sell those items into cash then it can be taxed thats the way I understand it?

Constitutionally, Gold and Silver are suppose to be the US money. Currently, since 1971, our money is Federal Reserve Notes of debt, which is from a quasi-governmental private central bank. There's no specific mentions of what type of money is taxable because taxes weren't suppose to exist before 1913, the year of the Federal reserve Act, IRS establishment, and the 16th Amendment.

Yes you are taxed again if you sell something you bought for a profit, including bitcoin. The government loves to say bitcoin is worthless, but you better pay up, boi!

Technically American citizens that are not government workers that earn domestically derived income are not required to pay income tax. The income tax only applies to resident aliens, and citizens earning foreign derived income, and government employees. Most citizens do in fact pay income tax because employers force you to fill out a form called a W-9 which in turn obligates you to file a 1040, which declares yourself a taxpayer under penalty of perjury.

Dave Champion has a podcast and a book about US tax law, and 99% of Americans shouldn’t be paying income tax.

TLDR: you get double and triple taxed, yes, unless you can avoid filing a 1040 (easiest if it’s a small company, you own the company, self employed etc, and a US citizen)

Joe Banister and Sherry Peel Jackson, who were former IRS employees, talk about that as well. I made a thread about US Income Tax in the Deep Forum (https://christisking.cc/threads/the...not-actually-be-liable-to-pay-income-tax.878/), but nobody here took me seriously and thought I was "fed posting," so I gave up.

But anyways getting back to this thread's topic, the only real way to escape the system is through our parallel economies,

 

[Thefinalepic]

Monero seems to solve most of the problems that are brought up about Bitcoin, just finding people who accept it isn't so easy. I still believe paying in cash for these assets is the way forward, then moving it to a secure cold storage wallet. Only carry around as much as you can afford to lose.

 

[Based_Christian_Dude]

Monero seems to solve most of the problems that are brought up about Bitcoin, just finding people who accept it isn't so easy. I still believe paying in cash for these assets is the way forward, then moving it to a secure cold storage wallet. Only carry around as much as you can afford to lose.

It's slowly getting adopted. A few of parallel economies in Latin America accept them.

 

[GoodShepherd]

Yes you are taxed again if you sell something you bought for a profit, including bitcoin. The government loves to say bitcoin is worthless, but you better pay up, boi!

Technically American citizens that are not government workers that earn domestically derived income are not required to pay income tax. The income tax only applies to resident aliens, and citizens earning foreign derived income, and government employees. Most citizens do in fact pay income tax because employers force you to fill out a form called a W-9 which in turn obligates you to file a 1040, which declares yourself a taxpayer under penalty of perjury.

Dave Champion has a podcast and a book about US tax law, and 99% of Americans shouldn’t be paying income tax.

TLDR: you get double and triple taxed, yes, unless you can avoid filing a 1040 (easiest if it’s a small company, you own the company, self employed etc, and a US citizen)

I agree and understand if you sell something for a profit then its going to be taxed, but what if you dont sell that something, how can it be taxed? Off the top of my head Im thinking about a house, you might have bought it for a certain price, the value goes up after some time, as long as you not renting out the house and getting income or selling the house a person shouldnt be paying tax technically until either one of those 2 scenarios has happened?

Its sad like you said most US citizens shouldnt be paying income taxes but are still actually paying, it makes me think about the Amish, I hear they dont even have social security numbers, its like they living completely off the grid, I wonder how they do their taxes?

 

[chance vought]

I agree and understand if you sell something for a profit then its going to be taxed, but what if you dont sell that something, how can it be taxed? Off the top of my head Im thinking about a house, you might have bought it for a certain price, the value goes up after some time, as long as you not renting out the house and getting income or selling the house a person shouldnt be paying tax technically until either one of those 2 scenarios has happened?

Its sad like you said most US citizens shouldnt be paying income taxes but are still actually paying, it makes me think about the Amish, I hear they dont even have social security numbers, its like they living completely off the grid, I wonder how they do their taxes?

If you don't sell, no tax.
Not sure if they pay taxes, I doubt it.

 

[scorpion]

Crypto is certainly a digital asset. This is America, if you make money you pay tax. Income from staking or mining is “award or payment” and have their own tax rates. The question on the 1040 is asking if you generated a taxable event, sell/trade/exchange are taxable events.

Hence the appeal of stablecoins, which allow people to "sell" crypto for "dollars" that aren't actually real dollars, just tokens pegged to the dollar 1:1 (each one supposedly back by an actual dollar, *wink wink*). The entire purpose of stablecoins is tax evasion.

Technically American citizens that are not government workers that earn domestically derived income are not required to pay income tax. The income tax only applies to resident aliens, and citizens earning foreign derived income, and government employees. Most citizens do in fact pay income tax because employers force you to fill out a form called a W-9 which in turn obligates you to file a 1040, which declares yourself a taxpayer under penalty of perjury.

Dave Champion has a podcast and a book about US tax law, and 99% of Americans shouldn’t be paying income tax

This is complete and utter nonsense, the sort of dangerous advice that will end up getting people in serious legal and financial trouble. I can assure you that the IRS will come after you if you decide to stop paying your income taxes. It's happened to wealthy and powerful people, it's happened to everyday people. It's even happened to me personally (a rough patch in my twenties where I made very little money for a couple of years, so little I thought I didn't even owe any taxes. Guess who got a letter from the IRS several years later demanding their cut, plus penalties and interest on top of it?) Fortunately, I was in a much better financial position at that point and was easily able to pay it off. But the point is, don't mess around with the IRS - they will come after you. Just pay your damn taxes. It's literally an injunction from Christ himself to render to Caesar.

 

[chance vought]

Taxation is theft, which is against the 10 commandments.

Stablecoins are also used by people living in places with capital controls, in order to escape financial repression, and get out of their local currency.

 

[scorpion]

Taxation is theft, which is against the 10 commandments.

Taxation is not theft, since you receive value from the government in return for it (i.e. roads, bridges, sewers and other infrastructure, public safety like firefighters and police, hospitals, public education, military defense, legal system, etc...). You can certainly argue over the specifics of that value and how tax money is spent, but taxes are not morally or legally comparable to theft because there is an actual exchange provided, even if it is compulsory. You can make a much better argument that inflation is theft, however.