The Evangelical Faith

[God's lonely asperger]

Man, I am just shocked at the televangelist channels now that I have a local television access. Brazilian televangelists cannot even grasp the idea of a filter. Praying covid away doesn't have anything on the public emotional testimonies of 3 dollar a month favela evangelicals in Rio or other hellhole criminal cities. Some of the most disturbing imagery ever, usually followed by the most charismatic heresy you have ever witnessed that was probably created on the spot. Doesn't help their grifting model preys on the lowest of the lowest classes, who tend to be nominally Christian, or can't tell the difference between Evangelical and evangelical, but that's just South America in general. Some of these famous grifters have been caught with illegal weapon arsenals that could take over the country or a drug area. I have to question what a pastor does with more than 5 shotguns and rifles on his person.

My brothers in Christ, I am talking about the lowest of the lowest class. I'm talking, in examples, of kids with pictures of themselves with guns, being publicly shown, then being declared as "baptized by me yesterday!" By the televangelist in question. The grift isn't really worth debating as they end up getting arrested in ways that not a single rational apologetic Christian would play devil's advocate for. It is blood money with literal blood in it sometimes.

I don't know if the channels are a genius unfiltered portrayal of the lowest class, with their programs on a ton of the different ethnic and economic background states (richer and whiter states tends to not have former criminals, but just foolish lower class guys. Compare this to the kid with the gun in Rio), or if they are Satanic through and through, and even watching them is spiritually bad for you, and I don't say this lightly. Differs from channel to channel and televangelist, definitely, but there is an obvious reason they are only in the local of the local TV that only needs an old antenna to work.

Editing to say I feel a charismatic thread would be great for here. I'm not in any way from that background, so I can probably be rude to it in a general sense. Most people in my church will tell me they were from God's Assemblies, and have varyingly bad or good experiences. Usually bad like terrible scamming. From my outsider perspective, scamming is always charismatic, but charismatic is not scamming (think about it).

 

[God's lonely asperger]

Lol, looking again at the channels. There are less grifty ones, less brutal ones. There are

-Mozambique Evangelical channel that seems to play in all the Lusophone channels (donation numbers for Angola, even)
-American Pentecostal gospel music channel (English, somehow my antenna has this LOL) currently playing Nevada call questions about "who goes to Hell"
-The Catholic ones (very similar outside the focus on selling some have) very focused on the older audience, which is exactly their audience. Very watchable on a lot of hours even as I am Protestant
-Jehovah ones (not many)
-Hardcore grift ones like the post above

I don't hang around the tele a lot, and I don't think there are Presbyterian ones, but it's interesting to take a tour through these. Televangelists are all weird, however.

 

[Wutang]

These Brazilian televangelists based on what you describe seem similar to the ones that were getting lots of attention (and donations) in the 80s. Lots of these guy ended up in big scandals which eventually did a lot a damage to the reputation of Christianity, especially that of the evangelical type in the end. From what I see as an outsider it seems like evangelical movement in Brazil at the moment is at it's peak in the same way it peaked in the US 80s and early 90s which resulted in Pat Robertson even making a run for the presidency. I wonder if we're going to start seeing lots of backlash in Brazil in the same way we starting seeing in the US.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

From what I see as an outsider it seems like evangelical movement in Brazil at the moment is at it's peak in the same way it peaked in the US 80s and early 90s which resulted in Pat Robertson even making a run for the presidency. I wonder if we're going to start seeing lots of backlash in Brazil in the same way we starting seeing in the US.

Catholicism in general is dying out here, for better or for worse. I have optimism for religion here, even if most Protestants are Pentecostal or Assemblies of God. Catholicism had its issues, and was never taken seriously in Brazil, as someone who is a "cradle" and who was baptized in it.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

The backlash part is only because they are conservative. In America, for comparison, Protestantism was always the nominal religion (WASPs) but literally never the state Church. Here it was Catholicism and the Jesuits in the colonial era. Catholicism in itself is mixed with the pope's authority and its own authority. It's obvious polygamy is not halal in Catholicism, but guess what Church allowed polygamy after the Paraguay war. It is conservative in Croatia and conservative nominal countries, but liberal in liberal countries (((America))), but that is just nominalism in general.

Protestantism and charismatics always had grifting and weird heretical practices, but never near the Pat Robertson stuff. The only religious "priest" or pastor in the last election was a literal fraud claiming to be a "Bolivian Orthodox Church priest", but even the Bolivians called him out LOL.

As it stands, Bolsonaro is hard pandering to lowercase e evangelical women. That is his market against the more Catholic and humble welfare browns voting for Lvla. Both sides are humble, brown, and want gibs, but then that's just Brazilian politics 101.

 

[Wutang]

Catholicism in general is dying out here, for better or for worse. I have optimism for religion here, even if most Protestants are Pentecostal or Assemblies of God. Catholicism had its issues, and was never taken seriously in Brazil, as someone who is a "cradle" and who was baptized in it.

I've met quite a few Brazilians immigrants in the United States through the years and actually spent quite a bit of time training BJJ and muay thai at a gym in an area that located in a Brazilian section of a city in my state and 95% of the gym members were Brazilians. Pretty much every devout Brazilian Christian I met was a low-church evangelical. I don't think I've met one Brazilian of Catholic background that was actually actively practicing the faith.

As for the practices of these evangelicals, it seems like they've picked quite a bit of both the culture and theology of American evangelicals. A lot of these Brazilian evangelicals seem to be pretty big fans of the worship music you see get released by all the big megachurches like Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation, etc. They've also seem to have picked up a lot of the end-times theology as well as unfortunately, Israel worship.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I've met quite a few Brazilians immigrants in the United States through the years and actually spent quite a bit of time training BJJ and muay thai at a gym in an area that located in a Brazilian section of a city in my state and 95% of the gym members were Brazilians. Pretty much every devout Brazilian Christian I met was a low-church evangelical. I don't think I've met one Brazilian of Catholic background that was actually actively practicing the faith.

Hah, I got the point a while ago that your interest in Brazilian evangelicalism and quoting my posts about it is because of BJJ in America. What you see there is what I see here. Maybe the US migrants aren't part of the more historically ethnic-ish Churches here (usually black or Slavic, or Mormon), but I'm not sure.

The red pill is that Catholicism nowadays is only practiced by very old guys and a few, almost negligible circle of trad cath theologians who are usually terminally online. I enjoy the nominal Catholicism, for the most part, recognizing its clear issues in the Church as the reason I am not Catholic, but the liberal pope was the nail in the coffin for any serious or conservative Christian.
Protestantism keeps increasing in every yearly census. Catholicism has statistically almost no chance in this country.

 

[An0dyne]

This might be worthy of a new thread but I figure this is a good place to start it.

I'm a Lutheran and a part of the Missouri synod. In the US, the 3 big Lutheran groups I know of are:
1. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (pozzed, allows gay marriage/clergy, and female priests)
2. Missouri Synod
3. Wisconsin Synod

My list goes from 1 most pozzed to most conservative. Wisconsin synods are super conservative to the point where women cannot have any say over the authority of men.

I chose the Missouri synod and the only reason I did had to do with finding a church that has a high mass. I'm a former Roman and the format of the holy mass is important. Lutheran churches in the past followed the format of the Romans IE bells, smells, organ, and hymns.

However a lot of Lutheran churches are converting to contemporary services and this bothers me. Why? Because it completely makes church services indistinguishable from other denominations and makes the experience soulless and cookie cutter.

This isn't a knock at those who get value from these but it's essentially spiritual milk and honey. The traditional high church service when done right wraps in the lessons and sermons to the hymns.

The church I've found does a hybrid version. It follows a divine setting but then will throw a few contemporary hymns in during communion. It works.

It's just getting harder to find what I grew up with. Sooner or later they will all do the contemporary style. At that point I'll probably go orthodox but that's a different discussion.

This is a fitting thread for you to be in, as we swim in thee same waters. The struggle is real. I have done a lot of study on the loss of traditional Evangelical-Lutheran worship in American ‘Lutheranism’ due to mimicking other sects and grasping at CoWo (which is always dated by the time it’s implemented). To be frank, modern Lutheranism is an embarrassment and I’m frequently ashamed to be a part of it.

 

[the beast1]

This is a fitting thread for you to be in, as we swim in thee same waters. The struggle is real. I have done a lot of study on the loss of traditional Evangelical-Lutheran worship in American ‘Lutheranism’ due to mimicking other sects and grasping at CoWo (which is always dated by the time it’s implemented). To be frank, modern Lutheranism is an embarrassment and I’m frequently ashamed to be a part of it.

Can you let me know what cowo is? What synod are you apart of?

I’ve found respite and there are strong churches that hold back the onslaught of modern contemporary churches but I fear as the old guard retire they’ll be replacing those services.

Even the super based wels synod churches here are all contemporary services and it makes me very sad.

 

[the beast1]

Edit: cowo is contemporary worship

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Here was a good episode from The Dividing Line. There was a recent controversy started by Shapiro, one that is very relevant to this forum, claiming that the phrase "Christ is King" is a countersemitic dogwhistle. At around 19:37, James gives his take on this. Overall, I agree with him. While I do not stick my head in the sand about the Jews (or any group), we should not develop arrogance towards them, it's even warned against by Paul in Romans. Bashing on Jews does nothing to make you more of a Christian. Nevertheless, Christ is King and Jews need to be called to repent and believe in the Messiah.

At 35:50, he talks about the phrase "Christ is King" and how it should be understood. What he described is exactly how I felt when this forum settled on its name. It is what I hope to see happen.

At 40:30, he talks about his interactions with Jenna Ellis, Trump's former attorney. She is another dispensationalist who believes that all world events are centered around Israel. It feels like almost every Christian in politics is a dispie. It's beginning to feel more like a cover and less like a genuine misunderstanding of the Bible. Because it's so blatantly unbiblical and proven false from Scripture. Not every single theme, granted, but the idea that Jews are the chosen people and Christians are lucky to be along for the ride is rubbish. Jesus Christ is the True Israel and the Church is His body.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

https://www.axios.com/2022/08/25/latinos-catholic-protestant-religion-politics
One of the bigger white-pills I've seen. Most Latins I've talked to identify as Christian or Protestant. And as they become Evangelized, they also become more right-wing. All Christian denominations have taken a hit in the U.S, due to secularism, but Protestantism is still the fastest growing denom. If trends continue, even as they are, it will be the largest Christian denomination within another generation or so.

 

[Wutang]

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but whenever I meet a Latin person who takes the Christian faith seriously over 90% of the time it's going to be someone who is an non-denominational evangelical or a Pentacostal. The Catholics tend to be much more lukewarm or entirely non-practicing. These Catholics also have a tendency to mix in idolatry/witch-doctor/pagan beliefs. The Protestants on the other hand tend to run away screaming from it to the point where they won't even celebrate Halloween and avoid doing anything that could have some connection to the occult - though some of the Pentacostals do get wrapped up in some of the weirdness that is associated with that form of Christianity that does seem to resemble New Ageism/occultism but with a Christian flavor.

The negative is that these Latin people also tend to pick up on the pro-Israel/Zionist nonsense that comes with the package. I've actually seen quite a few of these Latin churches that will have a Star of David in their logo and sometimes I'll see some girl from one of these churches wearing a Star of David necklace.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

These Catholics also have a tendency to mix in idolatry/witch-doctor/pagan beliefs.

In South America, the veneration of Saints is indistinguishable from the ancestral idol worship that they used to engage in, it is an abomination.

I've actually seen quite a few of these Latin churches that will have a Star of David in their logo and sometimes I'll see some girl from one of these churches wearing a Star of David necklace.

That is unfortunate. But it goes to show that no one is immune from man-made traditions. The Star of David is not even in the Bible nor is it connected with David.

 

[M.Balakirev]

Guys, I'd like to know what type of Protestant Church would be best to attend longer term. The church I'm a member of is a Presbyterian church and is very much progressing in the direction that suits young people with all the celebration, come as you are clothes, guitars, Bethal/Cody Carnes songs, hands in the air, so whilst our sins and the cure is mentioned, the penalty isn't really.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Guys, I'd like to know what type of Protestant Church would be best to attend longer term. The church I'm a member of is a Presbyterian church and is very much progressing in the direction that suits young people with all the celebration, come as you are clothes, guitars, Bethal/Cody Carnes songs, hands in the air, so whilst our sins and the cure is mentioned, the penalty isn't really.

I'm biased but there is no more Scriptural church than a Reformed Baptist church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession. They believe the Atonement actually saves, per Hebrews, they have a biblical understanding of both sacraments, defined by the Bible and not by the developing tradition that came centuries later, and they do not allow the sacraments to undo the effectiveness of the cross, which always results from a weak soteriology and an overemphasis on sacramentology.

Or you could find another Presbyterian church that is pretty much 95% there with the Reformed Baptists. OPC Presbyterian churches are solid and take worship seriously. PCA churches have good and bad, they're hit or miss, but mostly good. PCUSA churches are known to be liberal for a while now.

 

[M.Balakirev]

I'm biased but there is no more Scriptural church than a Reformed Baptist church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession. They believe the Atonement actually saves, per Hebrews, they have a biblical understanding of both sacraments, defined by the Bible and not by the developing tradition that came centuries later, and they do not allow the sacraments to undo the effectiveness of the cross, which always results from a weak soteriology and an overemphasis on sacramentology.

Or you could find another Presbyterian church that is pretty much 95% there with the Reformed Baptists. OPC Presbyterian churches are solid and take worship seriously. PCA churches have good and bad, they're hit or miss, but mostly good. PCUSA churches are known to be liberal for a while now.

Many thanks for your response. I had a Baptist church in mind which I used to attend years ago before I came to faith, but that church has sadly seen a decline in numbers and has an ageing congregation now. I'm by default traditional, and whilst maintaining the sacraments as you mentioned are essential, I do believe a sombre setting is conducive to putting people in in the right frame of mind.

What's your view on some Presbyterian and other churches going in the liberal direction? I personally really struggle with it, whilst it seems most people (naturally) now gravitate to the liberal/charismatic churches which I think is a mistake and can lull you into a false sense of security.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Many thanks for your response. I had a Baptist church in mind which I used to attend years ago before I came to faith, but that church has sadly seen a decline in numbers and has an ageing congregation now. I'm by default traditional, and whilst maintaining the sacraments as you mentioned are essential, I do believe a sombre setting is conducive to putting people in in the right frame of mind.

What's your view on some Presbyterian and other churches going in the liberal direction? I personally really struggle with it, whilst it seems most people (naturally) now gravitate to the liberal/charismatic churches which I think is a mistake and can lull you into a false sense of security.

I define liberal as straying away from the Word of God. And so a church with queer flags is taking a liberal approach with the Bible's statements on that matter. Likewise, a church that denies Christ saves forever by one offering and replaces it with propitiatory sacraments that do not save forever, is taking a liberal approach with the Bible's statements on that matter.

It is always rooted in a denial of Sola Scriptura: that the Bible sufficiently speaks on these issues. I don't like it when churches do it, but it is not an indictment of those who actually do believe in the power of God's Word.

 

[M.Balakirev]

I define liberal as straying away from the Word of God. And so a church with queer flags is taking a liberal approach with the Bible's statements on that matter. Likewise, a church that denies Christ saves forever by one offering and replaces it with propitiatory sacraments that do not save forever, is taking a liberal approach with the Bible's statements on that matter.

It is always rooted in a denial of Sola Scriptura: that the Bible sufficiently speaks on these issues. I don't like it when churches do it, but it is not an indictment of those who actually do believe in the power of God's Word.

I'm friendly with a couple of guys I work with who are fundamentalist, and they believe that the average person needs to be told why they need to be saved (which is uncomfortable), rather than telling them that you can leave all your problems with Jesus because you're in a dark place.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'm friendly with a couple of guys I work with who are fundamentalist, and they believe that the average person needs to be told why they need to be saved (which is uncomfortable), rather than telling them that you can leave all your problems with Jesus because you're in a dark place.

While I am not a fundamentalist, I think your coworkers are right on the money. People resist the Gospel message that all have sinned, and the wrath of God is the due penalty for sin. But that God has mercy for those who are in Him by faith, and He propitiates for their sin.

Both God's Mercy and Wrath are Biblical truths that should be balanced and harmonized. Too much of one or the other leads to imbalance. Big Eva tends to focus on Hyper Grace, which ends up with sin not looking that bad, and people wondering why Hell even exists at all. It's pretty sad.

It is not the Church's job to change the Gospel message to win more followers. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel, as it was delivered, to a dying world.