Sources for the Old Testament

[Blade Runner]

@Blade Runner There is a difference between making a claim and substantiating a claim. Just because you claim something does not mean it's true. When you make a claim, you are supposed to substantiate it with evidence. If you refuse to substantiate your claims with evidence, in this case because you can't, then you are not worth interacting with because you are wasting people's time. If you are debating someone and refuse to interact with their evidence by handwaving their evidence away with more unsubstantiated claims, then do not expect people to take you seriously. People will realize you do not arrive at your conclusions through logic. This is clear in the Bitcoin thread, other threads, and now here.

You've made a string of false claims, haven't backed them up with any evidence, just rhetoric. Why should I continue to provide you evidence when you refuse to provide any? Instead, you come at me with buzzwords like weird, bizarre, like a liberal trying to shame me into believing falsehood. It's not going to work.

I support everything I say, so this is two paragraphs of nothing. That you make a reference to the BTC (can't recall your position but now it's clear I guess) thread is even worse because we've laid out the entire argument multiple times over there and already proven right, as the characteristics can't be argued, the only question is if/when the network would fail.

If "every single early Christian community believed this," as you claim, then it should be easy to provide this evidence.

Every single church of the original believers (all what we call the orthodox/catholic churches) from the lands of the Middle East and empires of the surrounding regions had this belief and STILL hasn't changed it. You have to make this bizarre argument that you know what someone believed in the 1st century that is discontinuous from what happened to every church that proceeded from that time, all aramaic, hebrew, greek, etc language speakers to boot.

Show me the evidence that the complete copies of the Septuagint that we use are older than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I never said this. I said the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed the Septuagint and they condemned some parts of the Masoretic Text, which was changed, just like Psalm 22 was. Those are facts. Supporting the masoretic text, as in my example of them changing Psalm 22, is of the anti-christ, because its spirit is to lie about God or substitute things for other aims, which is what rabbinical judaism did.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I never said this.

You did. You said "the Septuagint predates them both." Then you didn't even try to bring up evidence for that falsehood because when you looked it up you realized you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

You also didn't even try to bring up evidence for your other position, also because you realized there isn't any.

Go listen to Shamoun and believe whatever he tells you.

 

[Blade Runner]

You did. You said "the Septuagint predates them both."

Again, that was to the video you produced. Either the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that many things in the Masoretic manuscripts were changed, or they don't. Which is it? Psalm 22 the most glaring example. Just admit it - we both know it but you try to distract here and defend the Masoretic Text. I'm not sure why you do. My assertion has been the same. Of course they didn't change all the scriptures, but they certainly did change the ones that make the Messiah clearer, and that Messiah is Christ. Why is this so hard for you to admit? It's literally the point of Christianity vis a via Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Again, that was to the video you produced. Either the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that many things in the Masoretic manuscripts were changed, or they don't. Which is it? Psalm 22 the most glaring example. Just admit it - we both know it but you try to distract here and defend the Masoretic Text. I'm not sure why you do. My assertion has been the same. Of course they didn't change all the scriptures, but they certainly did change the ones that make the Messiah clearer, and that Messiah is Christ. Why is this so hard for you to admit? It's literally the point of Christianity vis a via Rabbinical Judaism.

Nah, you blew it. I gave you a chance to have a good faith argument but you don't have the integrity for it, so I will leave you to your willful ignorance.

 

[Blade Runner]

Nah, you blew it. I gave you a chance to have a good faith argument but you don't have the integrity for it, so I will leave you to your willful ignorance.

Confirming the fact that they changed the text. Anyone can verify this, by the way, so it just makes you look worse in the back and forth. Beyond that, it makes you a supporter of Pharisees, tacitly.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

For those who are interested in Psalm 22:

There is a textual variant in Psalm 22, verse 16. The text is a Messanic Psalm. In a fragment of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in the Septuagint, the text says: they pierced my hands and feet. In the Masoretic Text, the text says: [they're] like a lion at my hands and feet.

As for how meaningful textual variants go, this doesn’t do anything to change the meaning, since lions at your hands and feet would pierce them. But the argument from Septuagint fundamentalists is that the Jews deliberately changed this text to conceal it's Christological import. It's a very weak argument for a few reasons:

One, the New Testament doesn’t quote this verse once, despite quoting the rest of the chapter, so the Septuagint fundamentalists are placing an undue weight on it because it's one of the only evidences that would vindicate their position.

Two, the Septuagint itself doesn't pass this litmus test that the Septuagint fundamentalists have placed on the Hebrew texts. In Zechariah 12:10, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text both say: they will look upon Me whom they have pierced. The Septuagint says: they will look upon Me whom they have mocked. If the Septuagint fundamentalists were honest folk, they would apply the same standards to themselves that they apply to others, but their dogmatism overrides their honesty.

Three, if the Jewish copyists of the Masoretic Text were trying to remove all references to Christ like the Septuagint fundamentalists claim, then one wonders why other great Messianic prophecies such as Zechariah 12, Isaiah 53, Malachi 3, (portions of Scripture that the New Testament actually does quote) and more, remain consistent between the Dead Sea Scrolls and Masoretic Text.

The Septuagint fundamentalists are arguing from an ethno-centric, tribalist mindset where the Greek translation is preferred over the Hebrew Original because they belong to a Greek church. This is why they have no scholars at the academic level making any contributions in this field. They can't. They have to believe by dogma things that are contrary to reality.

 

[Blade Runner]

One, the New Testament doesn’t quote this verse once, despite quoting the rest of the chapter, so the Septuagint fundamentalists are placing an undue weight on it because it's one of the only evidences that would vindicate their position.

Ever heard of this, the first line of Psalm 22?

Ps.22​

[0] To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
[1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I wonder who said it.

This is getting embarrassing. Christ prayed this Pslam AS THEY CRUCIFIED HIM, because it shows He is the fulfillment of the Law, Psalms, and Prophets AND this Psalm at its conclusion implies his victory over death, which is to come.

The Septuagint fundamentalists are arguing from an ethno-centric, tribalist mindset where the Greek translation is preferred over the Hebrew Original because they belong to a Greek church. This is why they have no scholars at the academic level making any contributions in this field. They can't. They have to believe by dogma things that are contrary to reality.

We wrote the Bible, and wrote it in Greek, the lingua franca of that time period. Did it have to be written in Greek? No. And the language doesn't make the Church "right", the Church through its doctrine and practice, handed down from the Apostles, which we maintain, does.

Now your maturity will be tested, given what I have proven here, which clearly contradicts what you stated previously.