Protestantism: Critique and Debate Thread

[The Penitent Man]

Penitent, take the time to read this:

The Perspicuity of Scripture in the Early Church

I have written before on sola Scriptura in the early church, but now I want to give you some quotations on the perspicuity or clarity of Scripture in the writings of the early church fathers in con…

jamesattebury.wordpress.com

The guys you are listening to, and the line you're falling for, is the imperspicuity of Scripture. No one in the early Church believed the Scriptures were unclear. Just the opposite, they all believed the Scriptures are indeed clear. This is one proof among many that the guys you're listening to are not the guys "who were there before the lens broke" nor are they a "consistent and reliable source."

Here's a guy who was actually there "before the lens broke" saying the opposite of what you're saying above:

Hey thanks for posting this, will read through it when I get a sec. Gotta return to the Monday grind.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I can point to scripture that states otherwise.

No Scripture states otherwise. Everything in the Scripture can be understood by reading it. Or as the Church fathers and Reformers say, by using ordinary means (reading it + believing in it).

In Acts chapter 8 the Ethiopian tells Philip that he can’t understand scripture unless someone explains it to him.

Are you saying that the Scriptures clearly teach that they are unclear?

I’m sure you can point out scripture that supports your position.

I can, such as Timothy "knowing the Scriptures from childhood." The Bereans testing Paul's Gospel by appealing to the Old Testament. Paul saying that the Scriptures are able (not unable) to fully equip the man of God for doctrine and every good work.

That is the problem with Sola Scriptura.

You being out of accord with both the Bible and the early church is the problem with Sola Scriptura? Sola Scriptura is the doctrine that when it comes to Scripture and Tradition, Scripture comes out on top everytime. This was the view of the early church. This is also Jesus' own view of the Scripture. If Jesus is your teacher, perhaps you should share His view of Scripture as well:

Mark 7:6-9:
And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

The Orthodox by no means have a diminished view of the scriptures. Everything we do is based on them. A significant portion of our services are the scriptures.

They do have a diminished view of Scripture since they need to filter it according to their tradition. They're not even shy about admitting that. Why do you think they insist the Scriptures are unclear and that they need to be the ones to interpret it for you?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

For those who think the Scripture is unclear, 2 Corinthians 4:4 speaks well of you.

2but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

“Some people who have fallen foul of this complaint have endeavored to level charges at the divine Scripture, and especially the inspired oracles, of being shrouded in obscurity. To such people the divine-inspired Paul would retort, ‘Now, even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, but to the mature it is wisdom we are speaking.’ In keeping with this, too, is what is said by our Lord and savior to the holy apostles, ‘To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, whereas to those others it is not given;’ and to explain the reason he immediately adds, ‘Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not understand’ — that is, they willingly bring upon themselves the cloud of ignorance: if they turn to the Lord, as the apostle says, the veil will be lifted. Divine realities, therefore, are not obscure to everyone, only to those who are voluntarily blind; they ought to take note and realize that nothing worthwhile is readily accessible to human beings” (Theodoret of Cyrus, In Ezechielem – Præfatio, [PG 81.808-809]).

 

[Aboulia]

He is also known for pointing out that the three-tiered office of the church that Catholics and Orthodox have is not the original system of church government that the Apostles established and that the Scriptures present. He pointed out that the Apostles used a two-office government of Bishops and Deacons, the same that Protestants use today.

You can't even read Jerome right let alone the Scriptures.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 146 (Jerome)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

Of the names presbyter and bishop the first denotes age, the second rank. In writing both to Titus and to Timothy the apostle speaks of the ordination of bishops and of deacons, but says not a word of the ordination of presbyters; for the fact is that the word bishops includes presbyters also. Again when a man is promoted it is from a lower place to a higher. Either then a presbyter should be ordained a deacon, from the lesser office, that is, to the more important, to prove that a presbyter is inferior to a deacon; or if on the other hand it is the deacon that is ordained presbyter, this latter should recognize that, although he may be less highly paid than a deacon, he is superior to him in virtue of his priesthood. In fact as if to tell us that the traditions handed down by the apostles were taken by them from the old testament, bishops, presbyters and deacons occupy in the church the same positions as those which were occupied by Aaron his sons, and the Levites in the temple.

Edit: furthermore Protestants don't use the same government (outside of possibly Anglicans, not knowledgeable enough about them) because they can't, They don't have authority passed down and as anyone who doesn't pass through the gate but climbs in another way is a thief and robber(John 10:1) At best your 500 year old social club has a mockery and imitation of sacraments.