Money Creation and Central Banking

[jayco]

That's because you were early adopters... plenty of good news for early adopters who held. But "investing" in anything is gambling which is a jewish mindset in nature. It is about getting more by doing less. "Making your money work for you" and all that jewish nonsense. Jews Invented our current economic system (including btc) and there are some good things about it (constantly flowing electricity, roofs that dont leak, boomer 401K millionaires, JQ insurance that sometimes pays out to the gravely injured, etc.), but primarily the jewish banking/financial/insurance/lawfare scam of investing is about (((them))) getting us to give up our cash for 20 year stretches while they use our cash against us to fund globohomo faggotry and white Christian replacement via unfettered H1B and illegal immigration.

I think buying bicoin can be viewed not as greedy profitable investing but merely as trying to protect hard earned savings from inflation, the bad guys who cause it and have something for retirement, so its not exactly the same as playing by the rules of the system, I, mysef am against debt, investing and profit mindset. Electricity and good roofs didn't come from modern economic system, though, and can do well without it. I don't see much good in that economic system, personally. Those 401k boomer millionaires are at the cost of national debt. Big reset of the system is definitely ahead and if it all collapses gold like assets should survive, not the fiat money

That being said I'm going to be buying $500 a month in bitcoin because I can afford to lose ....But I would advise most normies to do what I say (cash out and move to the woods), not as I do.

I literally had moved to the woods and live in the wild, and plan to move to even more remote parts of the world soon. I think this is not contradictory to buying bitcoin. Power comes from cheap solar panels and internet is easy these days.

 

[jayco]

How is this any different than what I'm advocating, which is that people convert their fiat into assets like stock, real estate and gold

Nothing is wrong with that but here are the problems.
Say I move out of the States (and I will). What happens to stocks held?
American broker closes my account the moment they figure I live outside the States, it's happening all over. I can be forced to liquidate at the bottom of the market easily. My access can be cut off for as little as not having a US phone number these days and US numbers are being heavily geo-fenced. Or, for mere "fraud suspicion". Also, various financial regulations can make it impossible to own US or other stocks depending on a country or impossible to liquidate. One does not own "their" stocks in this system. They are held by the broker in the street name. The broker can cut access off overnight. These are practical considerations I experince, not theory. No self custody means its not owned. Believe me, there might be times soon when people get debanked for innocent social media posts, anywhere in the world, and stock ownership is a part of the banking system now, if you get blacklisted all brokers will drop you like a hot potato.

Also, stock market is artificially inflated by the government manipulation and is having unrealistic PE ratios. I personally do not need or want 95% of all that excessive and overheated economic activity, do not understand why it exists, and see zero value in it, more harm.

Real estate - not all of us can even afford it at current inflated prices. A lot of it is actual repairs/taxes/insurance money pit and is only propped by depriving others of a roof over their head
Gold - good thing, but paper gold in the ETF has the same problems as stocks plus a problem of likely not being backed by real gold.
Physical gold - a bunch of problems if you are traveling or moving countries (duty, like 25%, spreads like 10%+, transporting safety, can be low liquidity), plus safety aspects of even just storing it or selling it.

 

[scorpion]

Nothing is wrong with that but here are the problems.

Ok, now apply this same sort of hypercritical analysis to Bitcoin and tell me what you come up with. If you're intellectually honest in your assessment you will be forced to concede that Bitcoin is also highly flawed for a number of reasons.

There is no perfect asset class or 100% surefire safe haven in times of economic turmoil. This is why diversification is the ultimate hedge.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Ok, now apply this same sort of hypercritical analysis to Bitcoin and tell me what you come up with. If you're intellectually honest in your assessment you will be forced to concede that Bitcoin is also highly flawed for a number of reasons.

There is no perfect asset class or 100% surefire safe haven in times of economic turmoil. This is why diversification is the ultimate hedge.

So you admit Bitcoin can make up part of a well diversified portfolio because it’s strengths can complement the weaknesses of other assets (and vice versa)?

 

[jayco]

Ok, now apply this same sort of hypercritical analysis to Bitcoin and tell me what you come up with. If you're intellectually honest in your assessment you will be forced to concede that Bitcoin is also highly flawed for a number of reasons.

There is no perfect asset class or 100% surefire safe haven in times of economic turmoil. This is why diversification is the ultimate hedge.

Bitcoin is literally a life saver to a lot of people now for the reasons in my post above. International, borderless, self custody, store of value, can by free from kyc if you do it right.
One can say government regulations can be enacted against bitcoin, but one can sell bitcoin for cash p2p or transact it p2p for stuff, unlike stocks or paper gold. As to physical gold is much more difficult and unsafe to handle p2p. This is from practical life observations, internationally
I used to be a long time bitcoin skeptic but its hard to deny the obvious now. Fiat-debt is collapsing and there will be big rag pull accross large set of assets in my lifetime. I'm not against real state but in many counties its not an investment but a home. Aso believe me I had seen people not only have their real estate taken from them by the bad folks, but people lose their life over it, its a sitting duck situation. Bitcoin is genius stuff. I started to see it as a revolution by those who can be dispossesed. The system says: I devalued your savings, you will own nothing, I can debank you, and there is a quiet revolution against this

 

[Blade Runner]

I used to be a long time bitcoin skeptic but its hard to deny the obvious now.

Indeed it is hard for people to "kick at the goads."

Fiat-debt is collapsing and there will be big rag pull accross large set of assets in my lifetime.

Be careful, scorpion believes that fiat is good and is the reason why we have such prosperity, lol

I'm not against real state but in many counties its not an investment but a home.

It's also going towards zero vs BTC because everything is going to its marginal utility (where it is truly valued)

The system says: I devalued your savings, you will own nothing, I can debank you, and there is a quiet revolution against this

As I said in the other thread, I don't know how someone is on this forum and refuses to see this.

I find it amazing so few people overall see it, but I've had a lot of revelations about a) the average person, b) the times we live in, c) how few can really see things for what they are, over longer periods of time, or d) really care to.

It turns out that most don't have the gift, which is why they don't care. It's not because they don't care and thus don't have the gift to see, but it is a mystery. It turns out most people are very base and consensus is what they use as cue. Collectivism is shorthand for indifference, general inability or care for abstract thinking or planning, and thus is associated with high time preference.

 

[jayco]

I think it can be scary to admit to yourself that things you have trusted in and which had formed sort of a foundation of your belief system about how life, economy operate, what to expect from the future might be wrong.
Things you had been taught probably from childood. Trust in the dollar, monetary system, the government, in the economic system overall. There seems to be real paradigm shift happening in the world now and for a human brain it can be simply hard to accept, especially when one is older.

I think its pretty much universally agreed that gold survives inflation and calamities, though it has its speculative ups and downs too, while is just a piece of soft, shiny, somewhat useless metal. But gold is very inconvenient and risky to store and transport, it can be confiscated by any cop or customs agent without court order to begin with, or by robbers, while modern tech offers secure electronic options for valuables, I just can't help to think that digital gold must have been invented even if there were no bitcoin, there is a major niche and need for this.

 

[jayco]

I don't see interest bearing loan system as good or as the foundation of real (versus imaginary) prosperity. This is, in part, what had lead to huge 37T national debt. Every American owes over 100k based on that debt alone and the net worth of the majority is negative. Prosperity, but in forever debt and at the expesnse of future generations.

I see it as what they call "Infinite growth scam" of ever inflating money supply and useless "necessary" stuff. I hardly ever had debt in my life and never could sleep well while having it, I have no debt. I was taught nothing about debt in my young years except that it was very bad thing, even the Bible calls debt slavery to the lender. In the debt based system it's very difficult to simply survive if you do not go into debt. Daily survival basics such as roof over your head or a car require debt to own, and to take that debt one has to, first, get into smaller credit card debt to build up credit history, by having at least two debt accounts. Debt to get education, etc. Also, people take on huge mortgage debt to make money off inflation as the loan devaues over time, money being unsound while housing gets ever-infated (artificially, by investors cabal). Pretty insane, reminds of Alice in the Wonderland book. I think some interest bearing loans might have had their stimulatory role in the past, where they had been used jusiciously, but overall that system had only lead to people chasing material things and imaginary wealth, massive wealth redistribution, real debt slavery, commercialization of everything, homelessness, expensive medicine, big national debt interest and destruction of society from inside. Usury.

Right now national debt requires close to 1.5T a year of interest payments. Of course this has to come out of the thin air and cause inflation. It's a spiral of interest causing inflation and inflation requring higher Fed rates. Someone will get rag pulled in a major way ahead

 

[magoo]

Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

Read more on the Riksbank’s website.

www.riksbank.se

Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026​

Press release The Riksbank and representatives from the payment market have today reached an agreement to increase the possibility to make offline card payments for essential goods. The agreement is an important step in the work to strengthen Sweden's payment preparedness and increase resilience to disruptions in the digital payments system. The goal is for the measures to be in place no later than 1 July 2026.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Is fiat moral or immoral? On this hang all the issues, if you don't have the premise that fiat is immoral, it's not like we can go further than that.

"Win the argument" isn't what any of this was ever about. Those who hold BTC (in the case of the squabble) have already won, been winning, etc. It's like the analogy I've given in the past, a team beats you over and over and the only answer is "but but but" or "you're a religion/cult" or "it won't last" while its the losing team of course that is the one trying to justify, since their position doesn't meet reality.

What does fiat money being moral or immoral have to do with anything.

If we are playing that game....

Is the concept of money as means of value storage moral or immoral at all regardless of the valuation basis underpinning it's worth?

This is a retarded argument that serves no point other than academic mindrot.

There is no valuation metric universally agreed upon for Bitcoin so it is indeed a religion of value based solely on unquantifiable metrics.

Which is totally fine. But those of us with some financial educational background don't have to pretend otherwise.

If you believe in it and think it's going up great. Cash in. But notice the trend of the major money managers like blackrock. I think it's less than 1 or 2 percent of their balance sheet

 

[Australia Sucks]

There is no valuation metric universally agreed upon for Bitcoin so it is indeed a religion of value based solely on unquantifiable metrics.

Bitcoin is a commodity (digital commodity) and commodities in general other than cost of production (which Bitcoin also has i.e. the bitcoin mining cost) do not have universally agreed upon valuation metrics. It’s the same with gold, copper, oil, iron ore, bitcoin etc. People still invest in commodities. Do you consider commodities a religion of value?

 

[Blade Runner]

What does fiat money being moral or immoral have to do with anything.

Basically all of life and this forum, ultimately. If you actually consider the big picture.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Bitcoin is a commodity (digital commodity) and commodities in general other than cost of production (which Bitcoin also has i.e. the bitcoin mining cost) do not have universally agreed upon valuation metrics. It’s the same with gold, copper, oil, iron ore, bitcoin etc. People still invest in commodities. Do you consider commodities a religion of value?

There are still ways to value commodity companies. That's established by industry.

There is no such metric for Bitcoin.

Refer to my Steve Eisman video if you need clarification.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Your current explanation is not what you said before and you are moving the goalposts but I will let this one slide rather than dig up quotes of all your previous comments which people can read for themselves already. If that is your new stance that you are not supportive of invading other countries then I am glad to hear it.

Ok I think Im trying to give a more nuanced explanation of my position and understand that you could read one post and not appreciate the totality of my position

 

[Thomas More]

Is fiat moral or immoral? On this hang all the issues, if you don't have the premise that fiat is immoral, it's not like we can go further than that.

"Win the argument" isn't what any of this was ever about. Those who hold BTC (in the case of the squabble) have already won, been winning, etc. It's like the analogy I've given in the past, a team beats you over and over and the only answer is "but but but" or "you're a religion/cult" or "it won't last" while its the losing team of course that is the one trying to justify, since their position doesn't meet reality.

Why is fiat immoral? I can see how it has flaws as the basis of a monetary system, but I believe it has some strengths, and alternative approaches have flaws too. There certainly is a question of which monetary system has the fewer flaws and the greater strengths, but what is the moral aspect of using or not using fiat money? Is Bitcoin inherently more moral as a virtual, digital form of money?

 

[Get2choppaaa]

Why is fiat immoral? I can see how it has flaws as the basis of a monetary system, but I believe it has some strengths, and alternative approaches have flaws too. There certainly is a question of which monetary system has the fewer flaws and the greater strengths, but what is the moral aspect of using or not using fiat money? Is Bitcoin inherently more moral as a virtual, digital form of money?

Of course not. It's a nonsense argument.

All money is inherently worthless. It's only "value" is based on an agreed upon societal utility.

 

[Australia Sucks]

There are still ways to value commodity companies. That's established by industry.

There is no such metric for Bitcoin.

Refer to my Steve Eisman video if you need clarification.

You are shifting the goalposts once again I said commodities not commodity companies. Did you even read what I wrote.

Two very different things. A company drilling oil produced cash flow and can be valued using discounted cash flow analysis, replacement value of assets, etc.

Oil itself produces nothing. How do you come up with an “intrinsic value” for a barrel of oil. Warren Buffett made this point previously regarding that gold (and commodities more generally) cannot be valued because it is a non value producing asset.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Of course not. It's a nonsense argument.

All money is inherently worthless. It's only "value" is based on an agreed upon societal utility.

Fiat is immoral because it lends itself most easily to the Cantillion effect and hence the few at the top enrich themselves at the expense of everybody else by having first access to the freshly printed (borrowed into existence) money. Hence why the top 1% have been increasing their wealth exponentially since 1971 meanwhile real wages have dropped continuously since 1971 (a median wage today buys less than 1/4 of the amount of gold that the median wage did in 1971). Fiat is a direct transfer mechanism which takes wealth from the majority of the population (by force) and gives the wealth to the cronies.

You cannot print gold. You can only marginally increase the supply by mining more (which is expensive to do).

 

[Shaquilleoatmeal]

Fiat is immoral because it lends itself most easily to the Cantillion effect and hence the few at the top enrich themselves at the expense of everybody else by having first access to the freshly printed (borrowed into existence) money. Hence why the top 1% have been increasing their wealth exponentially since 1971 meanwhile real wages have dropped continuously since 1971 (a median wage today buys less than 1/4 of the amount of gold that the median wage did in 1971). Fiat is a direct transfer mechanism which takes wealth from the majority of the population (by force) and gives the wealth to the cronies.

You cannot print gold. You can only marginally increase the supply by mining more (which is expensive to do).

Fiat began in 1971? I thought it was earlier.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Fiat began in 1971? I thought it was earlier.

The last vestige of the gold standard was removed by president nixon. Before that the US dollar had a partial gold standard where foreign central banks (but not U.S. citizens) could redeem their dollars for gold. The partial gold standard era came after the classical gold standard. So up to 1971 it was only a partial fiat system and not full fiat.