Interesting recent visit to a church

[canuckj]

I have been doing some church shopping as the place I usually attend (due to proximity to my home) has recently become a bit liberal. There is a lot of talk about social justice and women in ministry. I find this unpalatable and it affects my ability to listen to the sermon and respect the pastor. I would consider myself a struggling evangelical and comfortable with mainstream Baptist or other like denominations.

On the recommendation of a colleague I attended a church in a gentrified area of town that is home to many hipsters. The place was a complete surprise. It was a very traditional building with stained glass windows and a traditional wooden altar and pews. The sermon was very good with a lot of church history references and expository preaching. The hymns were all traditional. Although the denomination was not clear it is definitely a Reformed type church (I am not a Calvinist) with Baptist leanings. The odd thing was that almost the entire congregation was young (and even diverse racially) and there were loads of young children and babies. Usually for such a conservative church I would expect an older crowd.

Has anyone noticed a trend with young people starting to attend conservative reformed type churches or is this more likely a one-off type thing I experienced?

 

[God's lonely asperger]

Reformed churches encourage church-goers to have kids as far as I know. My church is Reformed and it has a ton of kids. The pastor himself has 3 from what I remember.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I once found a church like the one you described in the heart of San Francisco. I couldn't believe it either.

 

[An0dyne]

Authentic congregations regardless of tradition seem to be thriving.

 

[Wutang]

I know a lot a 10-15 years ago there was a big returning interest in Calvinism but I'm not sure if it's still a big trend. I have a few anecdotal experiences of people who were part of evangelicalism but wanted something a bit less flashy and more theologically deep getting into the Reformed traditional but I'm not sure if that's part of a bigger trend.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I know a lot a 10-15 years ago there was a big returning interest in Calvinism but I'm not sure if it's still a big trend. I have a few anecdotal experiences of people who were part of evangelicalism but wanted something a bit less flashy and more theologically deep getting into the Reformed traditional but I'm not sure if that's part of a bigger trend.

I once got called a member of the "sedevacantist to Calvinist pipeline" on another forum last year. If it is that common to have a name, it caught my eye.

 

[An0dyne]

I once got called a member of the "sedevacantist to Calvinist pipeline" on another forum last year. If it is that common to have a name, it caught my eye.

I would be fascinated to hear that story.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I would be fascinated to hear that story.

Just found the thread after all that time. It was about some questions regarding theology, kind of centered around Protestantism. I was new to Christianity at the time, and the thread was old.
Apparently it became a schizo thread and half the posts were mocking a "sedevacantist schizo" for derailing. I got lost in my own thread.


You can probably check the thread itself if you want, but it's so bad that I was trying to get screencaps that don't give information on the thread itself. It is what it is.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I've never heard of Sedevacantist to Calvinist pipeline. From what I've noticed, most Sedevacantists and theologically liberal evangelicals become Orthodox.

 

[Ron Paul]

I go to a REC (Reformed Episcopal Church) church that is like you describe. We have more young people than old. From what I can tell talking to people, what brings them to a more traditional protestant church is similar to what attracts people to an Orthodox or Latin Mass church, and they may have even passed through those at one time or another. The difference is that in their hearts they're protestant, so a high church environment with a more protestant framework meets their needs.

 

[scorpion]

Sedevacantists are just Protestants 500 years late to the party.

 

[canuckj]

I go to a REC (Reformed Episcopal Church) church that is like you describe. We have more young people than old. From what I can tell talking to people, what brings them to a more traditional protestant church is similar to what attracts people to an Orthodox or Latin Mass church, and they may have even passed through those at one time or another. The difference is that in their hearts they're protestant, so a high church environment with a more protestant framework meets their needs.

Yes, a lot of the evangelicals are going liberal and the church I previously attended started talking about social justice and even preached a message on why Paul didn't prohibit woman preachers. The pastor said it was just a specific case of one church where women were causing problems. My BS detector was going full tilt . They also mentioned Tim Keller and to me that is a big red flag.

If you are a protestant I think you need to eventually go to a church with a reformed bent even if you don't like the doctrine. They are the only ones staying on the narrow path.

 

[Maddox]

I know a lot a 10-15 years ago there was a big returning interest in Calvinism but I'm not sure if it's still a big trend. I have a few anecdotal experiences of people who were part of evangelicalism but wanted something a bit less flashy and more theologically deep getting into the Reformed traditional but I'm not sure if that's part of a bigger trend.

Do Calvinist churches believe that everything is predestined, or just some things?

It makes no sense that everything would be predetermined by God because that would mean your own belief in God would also be predetermined.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Do Calvinist churches believe that everything is predestined, or just some things?

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

your own belief in God would also be predetermined.

We believe faith is a gift, yes.

 

[Maddox]

God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Uh..what?

We believe faith is a gift, yes.

I don't believe in this myself, but just to entertain this belief I'm going to play along. So if God has predetermined that some people will recognize Jesus as their savior and go to Heaven...what are the other people put on this Earth for?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Uh..what?

We believe that everything is subject to Divine Providence, we don't believe that God only predetermined certain events and leaves other events to chance.

So if God has predetermined that some people will recognize Jesus as their savior and go to Heaven...what are the other people put on this Earth for?

Why does God create people whom He knows He will send to hell? To reveal His wrath against sin, and to reveal His justice.

 

[Northern Pilgrim]

I know a lot a 10-15 years ago there was a big returning interest in Calvinism but I'm not sure if it's still a big trend. I have a few anecdotal experiences of people who were part of evangelicalism but wanted something a bit less flashy and more theologically deep getting into the Reformed traditional but I'm not sure if that's part of a bigger trend.

This has been my experience as well. Lots of folks with Calvanist leanings taking over/splitting evangelical churches. It is understandable though, because they seem to sense mainstream protestantism is lacking and are looking for something deeper and more authentic.
What doesn't make sense through is why they think 'reformed' is better than 'protestant', when it all has its roots in the same event/s.

To top it off, most Protestants I've interacted with believe the majority of Catholics are essentially in a cult and not saved. When Orthodoxy is mentioned, they think of ultra-orthodox jews...
It's basically a big "I'm smarter than you" social club, where everyone can individually interpret the Word according to their whims.

 

[canuckj]

Uh..what?


I don't believe in this myself, but just to entertain this belief I'm going to play along. So if God has predetermined that some people will recognize Jesus as their savior and go to Heaven...what are the other people put on this Earth for?

I don't really like the doctrine myself but there seems to be a spectrum of thought within "Calvinism" and many famous figures such as Billy Graham himself (originally a Presbyterian minister I believe) may have been in this camp. I find when it is actually explained to me that is is more palatable. Otherwise I just ignore the theological issue and try to focus on faith and my own relationship with God. There does seem to be many people in society just utterly don't care about God and react with anger every time someone tries to minister to them.

 

[Maddox]

I don't really like the doctrine myself but there seems to be a spectrum of thought within "Calvinism" and many famous figures such as Billy Graham himself (originally a Presbyterian minister I believe) may have been in this camp. I find when it is actually explained to me that is is more palatable. Otherwise I just ignore the theological issue and try to focus on faith and my own relationship with God. There does seem to be many people in society just utterly don't care about God and react with anger every time someone tries to minister to them.

What doesn't make sense to me about total pre-destination is that some people take years to find the Lord. They may start off as sinners but then they reach a low point in their lives causing them to look for God. Well, if God controls every aspect of our lives, why would he allow us to sin in the first place? And aren't we supposed to have the choice to choose good over evil? This doctrine means that none of that would exist.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

What doesn't make sense to me about total pre-destination is that some people take years to find the Lord. They may start off as sinners but then they reach a low point in their lives causing them to look for God.

I would say that all of us start off as sinners; and some take a long time to find the Lord and some are saved from an early age. Nevertheless, we must all be saved.

Well, if God controls every aspect of our lives, why would he allow us to sin in the first place?

God allows sin in order to reveal His wrath against it and to show us how much we need God. Paul's elucidation in Romans is helpful on this: the Law (which is the perfect standard) incites sin in us, thus, the Law itself cannot save us but exposes our need for the Gospel which does truly and perfectly save us.

And aren't we supposed to have the choice to choose good over evil?

If the autonomy to choose between good or evil is the greatest good, then the New Jerusalem (where we will be incapable of sin) is a hindrance and not the final consummation.

Reformed Theology believes that you do choose to do evil, and that you must be saved from your sinful nature. It does not grant that fallen man, who is already guilty, has the ability to please God.