Interesting recent visit to a church

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I don't really like the doctrine myself but there seems to be a spectrum of thought within "Calvinism" and many famous figures such as Billy Graham himself (originally a Presbyterian minister I believe) may have been in this camp.

To my knowledge, he was an Arminian, not a Calvinist. He said some shaky things towards the end, things that almost sounded universalist. Nevertheless, I respect his monumental evangelical output and thanked the Lord for him on the day that he died.

C.S Lewis was also Arminian but it is not uncommon to hear Calvinists extrapolate from his insights.

John Calvin, as astute as he was, is not the standard. The standard has always been and always will be the Holy Bible.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I took a gander at an Anglican church a while ago. Guitars and the zoomer purple lights were enough to shoo me off.

Apparently it's a big thing in Northeast Brazil. One of the denominations is founded here, which is more charismatic and not in communion with general Anglicanism, and the other is founded way down South. Has a female bishop and declares itself very liberal as well, so I wouldn't take it very seriously.

 

[Wutang]

Anglicanism is the most liberal Protestant denomination there is besides the United Church of Christ with the exception of the Anglican churches in Africa. When I was in university and was more liberal I actually got involved with a Episcopalian (the American branch of the Anglican communion) ministry specifically because I was specifically looking for a church theologically liberal since I wanted something that was different from my more conservative non-denominational evangelical Protestant upbringing. One of the Episcopalian churches in my area actually has an openly lesbian priest and when Trump was first elected she held this special service where she invited a middle aged transgender man, an illegal immigrant, and people from various other leftist pet groups to speak so that should give you an idea where this denomination stands on a lot of issues.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

with the exception of the Anglican churches in Africa.

This is almost always the case, it's very interesting. The shameful part is when Western liberalism creeps up to a few of its churches, then bad faith arguments are made to slide an idea of "ha! Now join this (allegedly) more conservative movement!", on the basis of far-left churches existing.

Anglicanism is the most liberal Protestant denomination there is besides the United Church of Christ

To me, that was Universalism. They're by far the biggest megachurches I've seen. The preaching of there not existing Hell kind of makes it obvious that it's made for money.

 

[canuckj]

In Canada there are traditional Anglican churches that are not part of the larger Anglican church in Canada (theologically liberal). I did some research on them but found they are very small in general. Some are connected to African or South American Anglican churches and some have totally broken away from the main global Anglican body.

By contrast the United Church of Canada is a whole different beast and I would say totally apostate and no longer Christian. Feel free to google them to learn of their utter weirdness. They even have (or had) ministers that are atheists and leaders who didn't believe anything written in the bible.

 

[M.Balakirev]

I'd like to know opinions on this forum on 'modern' Christian worship with full-on celebration, hands in the air, guitars, and young men in skinny jeans, young women in hippy-chick dress, scripture readings from smart phones etc etc.

I really struggle with it personally; I hate to say it but I think it tends to appeal to women and young people and men who are frightened of strictness and authority, just by talking to a wide variety of Christian folks.

 

[Wutang]

^ A lot of that seems to have stemmed from the hippie Christian movement that was going on in California in the 60s and 70s which later spread to the rest of the country and is now the standard for a lot of non-denominational evangelical churches. There was a movie that came out last year that was a bit of a sleeper hit called Jesus Revolution that covered that era through the lens of a few figures that were influential in that scene.

Documentary about the movement

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'd like to know opinions on this forum on 'modern' Christian worship with full-on celebration, hands in the air, guitars, and young men in skinny jeans w/plimsolls, young women in hippy-chick dress, scripture readings from smart phones etc etc.

I really, really struggle with it personally.

Not a fan of the rock concerts. It is difficult to balance being nothing but a spectator (Chrysostom's Liturgy) and full on participation (Charismatic Craziness). I do not like to see people dress immodestly. The reading of the Word and the Lord's Supper are central. Too many churches gloss over the reading with window dressing.

 

[M.Balakirev]

Not a fan of the rock concerts. It is difficult to balance being nothing but a spectator (Chrysostom's Liturgy) and full on participation (Charismatic Craziness). I do not like to see people dress immodestly. The reading of the Word and the Lord's Supper are central. Too many churches gloss over the reading with window dressing.

When we think about what Christ did for us, services should be rightly sombre (it also helps to focus). A Pastor I used to know at a local Baptist Church once said "we're debtors".

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I'd like to know opinions on this forum on 'modern' Christian worship with full-on celebration, hands in the air, guitars, and young men in skinny jeans, young women in hippy-chick dress, scripture readings from smart phones etc etc.

I really struggle with it personally; I hate to say it but I think it tends to appeal to women and young people and men who are frightened of strictness and authority, just by talking to a wide variety of Christian folks.

A lot to sink in here. Guitars I am not a fan of. They can be good in some Saturday event I suppose, I like Sabaton myself. But I hate the more disorganized churches. A lot of the songs in Catholic churches here are soulless and modern. Barely has to do with God Himself. With Psalm singing, I feel this is not really the case.

The dress code is something I wouldn't really judge, but it sticks out like a sore thumb a lot of the time, especially in a conservative church or country, like Brazilian evangelicals. Smart phones I just hate in and out of church. Just get a Bible and read off that.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I have a friend who reads the Bible off his iPad because 90% of his vision is gone. While the optics of someone reading off their phone may look unusual or disrespectful, there could be something else to the story.

 

[God's lonely asperger]

I have a friend who reads the Bible off his iPad because 90% of his vision is gone. While the optics of someone reading off their phone may look unusual or disrespectful, there could be something else to the story.

Page flipping around kind of just sucks? I don't know if anyone likes flipping from Apocalypse to Amos, to Psalms, to Proverbs, and all of these being different verses. You get lost easily if you're new.

 

[M.Balakirev]

A lot to sink in here. Guitars I am not a fan of. They can be good in some Saturday event I suppose, I like Sabaton myself. But I hate the more disorganized churches. A lot of the songs in Catholic churches here are soulless and modern. Barely has to do with God Himself. With Psalm singing, I feel this is not really the case.

The dress code is something I wouldn't really judge, but it sticks out like a sore thumb a lot of the time, especially in a conservative church or country, like Brazilian evangelicals. Smart phones I just hate in and out of church. Just get a Bible and read off that.

I just think there's a time and a place for certain instrumentation, and guitars/keyboards etc aren't appropriate. I just think the traditional church organ or piano deliver the much deeper organic sound that is fitting for the house of God. I believe the grandeur of the sound itself is correlated very strongly with the glory of God.

With dress code, i.e. come as you are, has possibly been turned into an identity, considering people nowadays aren't as well dressed as say 30+ years ago.

This is the glorious sound of Widor's Toccata at the Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart in Newark. This is one of the very best recordings IMO.

 

[CJS]

Anglicanism is the most liberal Protestant denomination there is besides the United Church of Christ with the exception of the Anglican churches in Africa. When I was in university and was more liberal I actually got involved with a Episcopalian (the American branch of the Anglican communion) ministry specifically because I was specifically looking for a church theologically liberal since I wanted something that was different from my more conservative non-denominational evangelical Protestant upbringing. One of the Episcopalian churches in my area actually has an openly lesbian priest and when Trump was first elected she held this special service where she invited a middle aged transgender man, an illegal immigrant, and people from various other leftist pet groups to speak so that should give you an idea where this denomination stands on a lot of issues.

The diocese of Sydney (and several other in Australia within its orbit of influence) is also generally very theologically conservative, to the point where more liberal diocese in Australia would like it to leave the Anglican communion! Radically low church in its practice, very conservative in its theology, although sadly there are forces seeking to undermine that. They get on very well with the African Anglicans and there are strong and longstanding links.

 

[canuckj]

The diocese of Sydney (and several other in Australia within its orbit of influence) is also generally very theologically conservative, to the point where more liberal diocese in Australia would like it to leave the Anglican communion! Radically low church in its practice, very conservative in its theology, although sadly there are forces seeking to undermine that. They get on very well with the African Anglicans and there are strong and longstanding links.

I have heard this and wish there was a global revival of low church conservative Anglicanism. I think I would really fit in well in a church like this. The deep tradition but with faithful doctrine would be perfect.

 

[Wutang]

From what I heard, a few of the more conservative Anglican/Episcopalian churches ended up joining the Catholic church. An amusing result of this is that some of these Anglican priests that joined the Catholic church were married so now there's the existence of married Catholic priests.

 

[Ron Paul]

From what I heard, a few of the more conservative Anglican/Episcopalian churches ended up joining the Catholic church. An amusing result of this is that some of these Anglican priests that joined the Catholic church were married so now there's the existence of married Catholic priests.

That's actually not that uncommon. You can find married priests in the Eastern Catholic churches for example, and they're not necessarily stuck in those Eastern churches.

I spoke to a Western Rite priest once that was married with a bunch of kids. He was ordained in ROCOR, converted to Catholicism and served as a priest in Eastern Rite parishes, then ultimately wound up a priest overseeing a Western rite church because that's where the archdiocese placed him.

This kind of loophole thing is just one part of why I could never submit to Rome. It just seems silly and inconsistent. Like this guy is married and has kids and the two other priests at the same church are bound to vows of celibacy.

 

[the beast1]

In the Lutheran world (lcms) there's a split of cowo and traditional. If a traditional church exists and they have all of the trimmings of the divine liturgy and high church experience it draws people who like that. It's refreshing because it shows people steeped in modernity still seek it out .