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"I see bad people in Church'"

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TrainedLogosmotion

TrainedLogosmotion

Agnostic
Heritage
I've come across this hangup very frequently with the 'raised Christian and gave up' folks.

They go on some rant about the hypocrisy they see in the Church, the fake Christians, the pedophilia, etc. Just very negative. Doom and gloom. Mind in the gutter.

This usually leads to something like "I worship God in my own way I don't need the Bible or Church" or "All I need is my Bible I don't need a Church community". Either way it's a disconnect with other people because others are just so, so bad.

Ultimately it's a move away from God. These people are despondent, in despair, upset with God, distrustful of religion, etc.

What is your response to this? I'm curious to see what you guys say.

My goal is how best to point them to Christ without being combative. So that's why I'm asking. I've come across this more than any other argument with people in my circles or that I'm acquainted with.

So while we can say this appears to be a lack of love or their own pride or whatever...I don't want to attack them. Or while I could point out things like "Pedophilia is more rampant in public schools" this type of rationalizing doesn't get a response. That isn't going to help.

My point isn't to lecture them. I'm asking how best to turn their hearts in simple ways. Obviously prayer is important but I'm just wondering how I should navigate these situations because again I keeping coming across this over and over.

I also end up resorting to bashing other religions to try and lead them back out of relativism. But that just ends up making them even more blackpilled lol.

I feel like I'm not doing a good job evangelizing these types.
 
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TrainedLogosmotion said:
This usually leads to something like "I worship God in my own way I don't need the Bible or Church" or "all I need is my Bible I don't need a Church community". Either way it's a disconnect with other people because others are just so, so bad.
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I was just considering the other day that outwardly it sort of looks like monastics are doing the same thing. Some literally end up all alone for long periods of time. But inwardly, a monastic's drive is polar opposite of what you describe in someone saying "I just need the Bible and I'll worship God my own way". I wonder if there is something about a monastic in particular that could jar that kind of person to their senses. Everyone now seems to be driven out of selfishness and most of us don't even realize how bad we are.
 
Northumber said:
I was just considering the other day that outwardly it sort of looks like monastics are doing the same thing. Some literally end up all alone for long periods of time. But inwardly, a monastic's drive is polar opposite of what you describe in someone saying "I just need the Bible and I'll worship God my own way". I wonder if there is something about a monastic in particular that could jar that kind of person to their senses. Everyone now seems to be driven out of selfishness and most of us don't even realize how bad we are.
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I was thinking this too. Differentiating between these types and monastics. A monastic appears to be living out a healthier, properly oriented version of this type of person.

Pointing them to monasticism is good. Or the lives of Saints. Miracles. Mysticism. Things like that...

Monastics disconnect from the world and people but in prayer, fasting, love and obedience to God.

The type of person I'm talking about is still very much in the world, and while I don't know their hearts, I would bet that they aren't involved in prayer, fasting, love and obedience to God.

They are rebelling against the world and sickened by it, so it feels like they are on the right track. But the thing that makes it tough is when they are already turned off by having a bad experience with Christianity early in their life.
 
I've become (mostly) slow to judge at least until I feel I have some pieces of a person's life to work with, to have any real understanding of where they're coming from. I can say from my own experience that this is almost always an excuse. But why is this being used as the particular excuse, and what is the real reason?

By and large, I think the excuse is used because it's so pervasive that maybe they just assume everyone will just understand and not press them further on it. The real reason they don't want to go to church could be anything, and that's why I'm slow to judge. Because as you said, OP, we should be trying to reach them/evangelize. It could just be they want to sleep in. It could be, like my dad finally admitted after he for a long time used the excuse of "bad people in church." He finally told me it's because as a smoker, drug user, very carnal person, he just doesn't want to be judged. I told him, that isn't a good excuse, and he agreed. It's not our place to worry about being judged, except for by God. I know I'm judged harshly by people, often when I'm actually doing right. While I still care, I care far less than I used to.

Anyway, I do think the "bad people in church" is an actual reason, not always an excuse. And if so, that person is in a very dark place because it's probably pride. Forget that they think they are better than many churchgoers (they very well may be); but the fact they see themselves that way hints that not only do they see themselves as good (when only God is good), they aren't even in the place of realizing their condition. I know I'm spiritually sick, so I go to church, read scripture, etc. They don't even know they are sick - or at least, they think that while they may be bad in some ways, at least they are better than those who attend church (in their mind).
 
Good question and valuable reply @cheapchampion

When I encounter this issue I say on the simple issue:

- I go to the Church to honor God (and you don't need to interact with the people)
- Regular Mass is a crucial sacrament; it is necessary to keep the faith, following Christ, alive (I think this is a proven and a widely agreed concept)
- Find people that you like, I myself have not a lot with the cultural Catholics, but I also found a great group of people I like (you won't like anyone)
- On the abuse cases: Do you also don't send your kids to public school or to a swimming pool where abuse cases are just as high if not higher? Just keep your intuition, if you don't trust a priest don't go to that parish and go to another one. (anyhow that's wise)

Anyway, I do think the "bad people in church" is an actual reason, not always an excuse. And if so, that person is in a very dark place because it's probably pride. Forget that they think they are better than many churchgoers (they very well may be); but the fact they see themselves that way hints that not only do they see themselves as good (when only God is good), they aren't even in the place of realizing their condition. I know I'm spiritually sick, so I go to church, read scripture, etc. They don't even know they are sick - or at least, they think that while they may be bad in some ways, at least they are better than those who attend church (in their mind).
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What @cheapchampion says is true. I have seen it has been largely an excuse. I have seen that in my personal environment.
People don't want to face their sins and repent for that. Simple as that.

They are addicted to the frame: Priests are pedophiles. Church go'ers are losers that are just there to judge other "look at him, he hasn't been here for ages and now he comes back". It's not of this age. The churches are dying out. Religion is the cause of all wars. Why does te Pope need to decide what's good and bad.

In my experience many people feel deeply guilty in the eyes of God. They are scared to be in church, scared of their own feelings. They don't dare to share it often (and they don't need to with me).

I was successful a few times making people go back to church. But it was more that I shared about my experiences. Or invited them over. And shared empathy for their concerns.

So telling them bible stories, how it relates to stuff in my life and what i learned from it. Or beautiful books I read. Or that Christmas is coming up, shall we go to Mass together?

I guess the answer is empathy, just listen to them. Let them talk. Like Jesus did to them walking to Emmaus. People need to be heard, in their concerns as well.
 
So many verses that I can only link:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/coming_together_as_one

Those are the relevant verses; is paedophilia really a problem in the Orthodox church? I thought it was only the Roman Catholics. From a more worldly point of view, if you take a cross section of any section of society, you will find X number of paedophiles, X number of adulterers, X number of thieves, etc. At least the church will hold you go account, at least in communion you can help each other. Matthew 7:1-5. We are fallen, we are sinners, but we are tasked to love one another by helping one another, you can't do that as an isolated person. 1 Peter 5:8 is a warning.

Also, we go to church to worship the Lord, is that not a rather important function if church attendance? Okay, so you feel this way about it...how does God feel about your non-attendance? Your isolation? How can you fulfil the first commandment without fulfilling the others, love your neighbour as yourselves being the second most important?

Are they tempted into staying at home? Fancy a lie in? Big game on TV? Kids playing up? Probably so. James 1:13-15, that temptation to abstain is not coming from God.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I love going to church in case there are new faces to welcome, some who are just curious and need saving. What greater gift can we give God than to save his children from the fate intended by the enemy?

We are called to LOVE, that is why we should go!
 
I am not surprised when I hear this from the likes of Mormons or JW's, but from former Catholics and Orthodox always seems spiritually suspect to me, especially when someone, usually a girl, tells me they feel more connected to God at the rock n roll Jesus churches or these evangelical places that use artificial means to induce a "high" feeling. Roosh talked about the experience at Osteen's stadium in Texas, these places are very clever with their techniques to make people "feel" a certain way, and of course they usually only focus on a few points in history: random abstractions and incorrectly interpreted passages from the old testament about certain kings, a very soft-hearted look at Jesus' ministries, and the obsession with their almost cult-like worship of the end times. I don't know why, some people just cannot perceive the bigger picture of the history and the grandiose nature of the faith. They reject all the councils, or don't even know about them. Half of them don't even know what Eastern Orthodoxy is, the other half just think all Catholics are Pagan's masquerading as Christians.

Roosh had some very good reasonings for this in his streams and interviews before he retired from it.

Why would they keep the book (the Bible) but throw away the Church? It makes no sense. There are many ways to make these spiritually confused people feel cognitive dissonance with their willing choice to be apart from the Church, but that shouldn't be the objective. The objective should be to break through the "feels" they get from phony Churches and point them to the truth and heart of the established Apostolic Churches. The Church as a whole is representative of its body of congregation. The more intelligent, righteous, moral, and highly spiritual people join the Church, the better off the Church's mission will fare 'in the world' without making its assertion 'of it'.
 
If you want to follow God, you follow the Bible. The Bible says to go to church. Therefore, if you're not in church, you're not obeying God. If you do not go to church but claim to want to follow God, you are a hypocrite.

That said, it's not that church is always good. Church is made up of people, and people sin. So I don't trust people who paint a rosy picture. You know church has become just a routine for people when they start talking about anything but the Gospel after the service is over.
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
I've come across this hangup very frequently with the 'raised Christian and gave up' folks.

They go on some rant about the hypocrisy they see in the Church, the fake Christians, the pedophilia, etc. Just very negative. Doom and gloom. Mind in the gutter.

This usually leads to something like "I worship God in my own way I don't need the Bible or Church" or "All I need is my Bible I don't need a Church community". Either way it's a disconnect with other people because others are just so, so bad.

Ultimately it's a move away from God. These people are despondent, in despair, upset with God, distrustful of religion, etc.

What is your response to this? I'm curious to see what you guys say.

My goal is how best to point them to Christ without being combative. So that's why I'm asking. I've come across this more than any other argument with people in my circles or that I'm acquainted with.

So while we can say this appears to be a lack of love or their own pride or whatever...I don't want to attack them. Or while I could point out things like "Pedophilia is more rampant in public schools" this type of rationalizing doesn't get a response. That isn't going to help.

My point isn't to lecture them. I'm asking how best to turn their hearts in simple ways. Obviously prayer is important but I'm just wondering how I should navigate these situations because again I keeping coming across this over and over.

I also end up resorting to bashing other religions to try and lead them back out of relativism. But that just ends up making them even more blackpilled lol.

I feel like I'm not doing a good job evangelizing these types.
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I see it as a spiritual problem not a logical problem, they dont stop sending their kids to school with all the mass shootings and sex and rape scandals, they still deal with black people that probably had the worst pedophilia out of every race and all their crime etc, they still go to their doctors that kill some many people with errors and misdiagnosis, they still drive cars with all the accidents, they still let their kids watch cartoons on tv with all the brainwashing and propaganda, but when it comes to church and Christianity they all of a sudden have a problem for such minor issues. I would ask them how come for all the other things in life they dont react the same way they do towards the church, why do they still trust the science when all their prophesies didnt come true like the covid 19 stuff and global warming and the rising of the seas prophesies that didnt happen? They still give their time and money to these institutions but all of a sudden have a problem with church? I would encourage them to take their kids out of school and not go to doctors anymore and never turn on their tv's again and never trust any science etc etc, also tell them the church is a hospital for the soul so just like a hospital has sick people in it so does the church because they are there to get healed, they still go to the hospital with sick people and many who never get cured and died, they need to give the church AT LEAST the same respect and chance or else they are they hypocrites.
 
Their argument isn’t completely wrong. I’ve witnessed it first hand. Unless you know somebody well, you don’t know what their life is like outside of the 1 hour you see them in church on Sunday. Some people just go to fit in, nobody knows the real state of their soul.

I tell them is that it’s not a church problem, it’s a people problem because every community has hypocrites. Jesus rallied against hypocrisy, but can you really state it’s decreased in the past 2000 years? Not really.
 
I am one of those hypocrites that despises Sunday church service(s). Nothing is happening in them, except the repetition of love songs and sermons on a stage. Over the past year they have sucked the life out of me and I have asked the Lord to get me out from this.
 
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virtue said:
I am one of those hypocrites that despises Sunday church service(s). Nothing is happening in them, except the repetition of love songs and sermons on a stage. Over the past year they have sucked the life out of me and I have asked the Lord to get me out from this.
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How many Churches have you been to? Have you been to any Orthodox services (especially Antiochian)?
 
GoodShepherd said:
I see it as a spiritual problem not a logical problem, they dont stop sending their kids to school with all the mass shootings and sex and rape scandals, they still deal with black people that probably had the worst pedophilia out of every race and all their crime etc, they still go to their doctors that kill some many people with errors and misdiagnosis, they still drive cars with all the accidents, they still let their kids watch cartoons on tv with all the brainwashing and propaganda, but when it comes to church and Christianity they all of a sudden have a problem for such minor issues. I would ask them how come for all the other things in life they dont react the same way they do towards the church, why do they still trust the science when all their prophesies didnt come true like the covid 19 stuff and global warming and the rising of the seas prophesies that didnt happen? They still give their time and money to these institutions but all of a sudden have a problem with church? I would encourage them to take their kids out of school and not go to doctors anymore and never turn on their tv's again and never trust any science etc etc, also tell them the church is a hospital for the soul so just like a hospital has sick people in it so does the church because they are there to get healed, they still go to the hospital with sick people and many who never get cured and died, they need to give the church AT LEAST the same respect and chance or else they are they hypocrites.
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Great points. One thing to point out, however, is that most of your examples are not direct social contact, relationship or even depending on the point of view, confrontation. Religion tends to ask something of people, at least in some regard, even if it is sappy, inclusive, or modern woke nonsense (show up and support us!). Combine those two and it can be a hard ask for a lot of people, especially people who aren't very secure in themselves (most).
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
hypocrisy they see in the Church, the fake Christians, the pedophilia, etc. Just very negative. Doom and gloom. Mind in the gutter.

This usually leads to something like "I worship God in my own way I don't need the Bible or Church" or "All I need is my Bible I don't need a Church community". Either way it's a disconnect with other people because others are just so, so bad.
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I wonder how well a good pastor or priest would change this viewpoint.
I had an outstanding protestant preacher who died years ago, and I stopped going to church afterwards for a long time. The man was a font of wisdom and every sermon was very meaningful. This is in contrast to churches I attended before where I found the sermons just boring preachy motivational "God is good, amirite?" stuff.

Church is about fellowship to some degree, sure. But you are mainly there to worship in the moment, to listen to the priest, to hear the music, to be uplifted by the spirit. You can stay around afterwards and chat with fellow Christians, and should, but that is not the prime focus. I think an excellent pastor or priest would overcome all these complaints. The problem is finding one.

I'm sure some would disagree, but I'd focus on a passionate, fiery, Godly pastor from any denomination, just to get the friend back into worship. As his spirit grows, he can be lead to the right place. Wherever God's word is read, there will be good. Don't leave your church to help him find one, but it's something to keep in mind... (The pastor in the story above was non-denominational and generally speaking, I strongly dislike the fact that such churches even exist. But he was inspired by the Holy Spirit and my time with him was wonderful).
 
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