Christianity Lounge

[Blade Runner]

My conclusion is different, but it's been debated here many times. My thoughts on this:



This is between God and him, no way of knowing for anybody else. Nobody can see your true faith.
To my knowledge, Trump believes in Jesus Christ, his Savior. Trumps works don't negate this.
What else is required for salvation according to the Sola Fide principle- a loud verbal confession that faith by itself is enough to save a man?

Doing the works =/= there is no faith; we don't get to Heave based on whether we staunchly maintain that faith alone saves us.

God knows our hearts best. He can see how strong a man's faith is- Peter's faith in Jesus' power wavered, he didn't have enough to walk the distance on water, even though he believed Jesus was the son of God.

Most people here would agree that not doing good works is a sin, to repent of it equals getting on with them. Repenting on your death bed may not cut it.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Trump would describe himself as 'Other Christian' here.

The Catholic position is that Jesus has saved humanity, but before his time nobody- neither the wicked nor the good, who were stuck in Limbo, could enter heaven, including Moses and Elijah who appeared with Jesus during the Transfiguration.

After the Resurrection, those who have tho good works will, while those who have none, or whose works have been bad won't:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In Matthew 6, Jesus talks about the importance of storing up treasures in heaven during one's lifetime, and it doesn't look like it's only about the hierarchy of those holy souls.

You won't be forgiven, unless you forgive, this alone suggests you have to earn your admission. Not everyone may see it that way, but
unforgiveness is not a denial of the faith in Jesus:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus emphasizes the work of serving one another, even those we consider beneath us. There are different instances where Jesus explains how believers ought to conduct temselves, he performed the work of washing their feet.

Why tell anybody how to act then, a master could just sit back, and jeopardizing his heavenly abode wouldn't cross his mind, while his disciples attended to his needs.

Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry (...) and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life

I'm glad you made this nice response. So as not to derail another thread, I didn't post on the "Parable of the Last Judgment"

How you read that and think that "works don't matter" is beyond me. Also, one ignoring that "He will render to each man, according to his works" is at best, weird.

One of the other mysteries that is also implied in the Parable of the Last Judgment, which is the Orthodox position, is that we are saved as communities, or rather, as the people of God/His assembly. Not as singular people or an island unto ourselves. He doesn't ask, "Did you believe in me?" whatever that means, which is why I always stress that belief is actually faithfulness to Him. And doing things in life proves that you are faithful. Sometimes, of course, that includes not doing things.

By the way, there is also a proof to this, otherwise it gets to gnosticism, another great point of why modernity generally speaking, with these ideas of mental assent, is hogwash. Christ gave tasks frequently for people to do something, and it wasn't just some magical scam or tactic to immediately get something, or game God. That's why when they are faithful to Him, they are said to have been healed while they were going their way, walking to where he told them going to the priests to present themselves, for example. For this reason, it also makes sense that the proper translation in most cases is in fact that faith is faithfulness, just like when "save" is translated as "made you well."

"Your faith has made you well." It has saved you, protected you, healed you.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

How you read that and think that "works don't matter" is beyond me. Also, one ignoring that "He will render to each man, according to his works" is at best, weird.

Since your post is a veiled attack on the Gospel, I'll go through some of your points to show what it is you're misunderstanding.

which is the Orthodox position, is that we are saved as communities, or rather, as the people of God/His assembly. Not as singular people or an island unto ourselves. He doesn't ask, "Did you believe in me?" whatever that means,

This is a good example of a false dichotomy: that we are either saved as individuals or we are saved as a community. The Biblical truth is both/and. We are both saved individually and corporately. God relates to the Church as a whole and He relates to each one of us personally.

And doing things in life proves that you are faithful

Romans 10:5 describes this as a law-based righteousness: "For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of law: “THE MAN WHO DOES THESE THINGS SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

The faith-based righteousness is not about doing things in an attempt to prove to God that you are faithful. Romans 10:6-10 makes this distinction: "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way... that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

By the way, there is also a proof to this, otherwise it gets to gnosticism, another great point of why modernity generally speaking, with these ideas of mental assent, is hogwash.

In all my years of hearing the Gospel preached, I've heard heard faith described in this reductionistic way of "mental assent." The only people I hear speak this way are people who straw-man the Reformed position in order to brainwash and gatekeep their followers.

For this reason, it also makes sense that the proper translation in most cases is in fact that faith is faithfulness

The reason it isn't translated this way is because it has been proven to be grammatically false.

 

[Blade Runner]

Since your post is a veiled attack on the Gospel

Now I'm "attacking the Gospel". Defending it and understanding it is hardly attacking it. That's a clown take, just an emotional dig by you.

This is a good example of a false dichotomy: that we are either saved as individuals or we are saved as a community. The Biblical truth is both/and. We are both saved individually and corporately. God relates to the Church as a whole and He relates to each one of us personally.

Our whole experience as Orthodox is the both/and. You focus on individual salvation. Cut the crap.

In all my years of hearing the Gospel preached, I've heard heard faith described in this reductionistic way of "mental assent." The only people I hear speak this way are people who straw-man the Reformed position in order to brainwash and gatekeep their followers.

"I was saved on X date, 1973". Come on, you can't even be honest about what happens commonly in protestantism.

The reason it isn't translated this way is because it has been proven to be grammatically false.

No, translators in English bring their hermeneutic (protestant), so you are incorrect yet again, as far as what is the best translation, which is the point. You focus on the mental part and deny the "and" part you appeal to above, which is the faith is actually you proving it, meaning with action. As is obvious to any person that lives in this world, not just me saying so on the internet.

The faith-based righteousness is not about doing things in an attempt to prove to God that you are faithful. Romans 10:6-10 makes this distinction: "But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way... that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

Finally, confess and believe are present tense, meaning you will do them continually, meaning they are part of your choosing and acting. The saving is future tense, which means you are looking forward to judgment. The faith is that God will keep his promises, so you will keep believing, confessing, doing, repenting, all of it. If you do these thing are you "proving" something to God in the way that you are trying to do some gotcha? No. Are you proving yourself though? Of course. Just like anything else you do in life that is an exercise in fulfilling a purpose, task, accomplishment, etc. You're doing it because you trust him, and He has revealed to all that one ought to do certain things. That's the point.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Our whole experience as Orthodox is the both/and. You focus on individual salvation. Cut the crap.

Clearly not. Your own post said "we are not saved as singular persons." You are the one stuck in this false either/or thinking. Quit projecting it onto others.

"I was saved on X date, 1973". Come on, you can't even be honest about what happens commonly in protestantism.

You're both tipping your hand here and dodging my original point. If you want to know what Protestants mean by faith, they mean "trust in Christ." They don't mean "mental assent" as you slanderously accuse them of. You can find teaching upon teaching from Protestants on how faith is not just "mental assent."

What you really hate is the idea that Protestants are already saved right now. Hence, I said you are attacking the Gospel. We are saved, being saved, will be saved.

No, translators in English bring their hermeneutic (protestant), so you are incorrect yet again, as far as what is the best translation, which is the point.

It's not translated "faithfulness" because it would be grammatically incorrect given the context. No Bible translation translates it that way, not even the Orthodox Study Bible. This is you wanting to translate the Bible according to your theology.

Finally, confess and believe are present tense, meaning you will do them continually, meaning they are part of your choosing and acting. The saving is future tense, which means you are looking forward to judgment. The faith is that God will keep his promises, so you will keep believing, confessing, doing, repenting, all of it. If you do these thing are you "proving" something to God in the way that you are trying to do some gotcha? No. Are you proving yourself though? Of course.

None of this has anything to do with Romans 10. Where do you see the concept of proving yourself to God with actions in Romans 10? The whole book of Romans is about how God doesn't need to see works to declare you righteous on account of faith.

 

[Blade Runner]

Your own post said "we are not saved as singular persons."

And that is correct, also accurate.

You can find teaching upon teaching from Protestants on how faith is not just "mental assent."

The issue is that the way people live this out proves that it's a bad teaching.

What you really hate is the idea that Protestants are already saved right now.

You go on to give the Orthodox point of view. Why would I hate anyone being saved? Of course I don't. Just like it's absurd and slanderous for you to say that I am against the Gospel. Just stupid stuff.

They aren't saved "right now" in terms of the way we use the english language, or language at all, in attracting people to the faith. The judgment is what determines your "salvation" - in the way you all use the term. If you don't use it that way, you already agree with the Orthodox position. Great.

is about how God doesn't need to see works to declare you righteous on account of faith.

Romans is about many things, but certainly it is about Abraham, who was accounted righteous because of what he did (listened to God and acted). He didn't just stay in Ur and say, "yeah, I gotcha God"

He actually did what he told him to do.

Again, cut the crap.

 

[Pravoslavac]

You know, I was talking to my Bishop about this, and he said even though a proper baptism is a full immersion with triple dunks, he would still let this slide in the name of economia. Water + Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and provided the person didn't know any better, then he lets it slide. Not say all Bishops would let this slide but mine does.

And then Fr. Heers is attacked for being a "legalist" by insisting on baptism. Every person can and should be properly baptized if only he can physically step into the baptismal font. There are no gains by doing otherwise but many possible losses.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

They aren't saved "right now" in terms of the way we use the english language, or language at all, in attracting people to the faith. The judgment is what determines your "salvation" - in the way you all use the term. If you don't use it that way, you already agree with the Orthodox position. Great.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not of works, so that no one may boast.

Maybe you're not because you're stuck working for it, but Protestants are already saved right now.

Romans is about many things, but certainly it is about Abraham, who was accounted righteous because of what he did (listened to God and acted)

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about—but not before God! 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 The one who works, his wage is not counted according to grace, but according to what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Abraham was accounted as righteous because He believed in God. His acting came later as a result of faith. If your theology causes you to contradict the Bible, you need to get a new theology.

 

[Blade Runner]

Abraham was accounted as righteous because He believed in God. His acting came later as a result of faith. If your theology causes you to contradict the Bible, you need to get a new theology.

You separate this in your explanation of theology. That is the point. As I said, since "believing" is the key, the way most people then behave (the most important part of life is action, not what you "believe," this is just basic understanding of life and people's delusion and BS) is then trying to game the system in a gnostic way: "I believe, yes I do, I'm good." My emphasis is warning against this because of human (fallen) reaction and nature.

I'm not mad at you, I just correct certain things. But I will say, I find it fairly ridiculous for you to claim I "attack the Gospel."

You should never say anything like that.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I'm not mad at you, I just correct certain things. But I will say, I find it fairly ridiculous for you to claim I "attack the Gospel."

You should never say anything like that.

If you say that well meaning Christians aren't saved even if they're placing all their trust in Christ, then I'm going to call it for what it is.

Justification by Faith Alone is not meant to lull you into inaction. I grant to you that there are false believers and nominal Christians who treat it like fire insurance, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Misuse is not an argument against proper use. Read the primary sources. None of the Reformers thought of it that way and even cautioned against it. And I do agree that Antinomians take on a gnostic flavor, but it isn't correct or fair to impugn all Protestants as that, especially when it was the Protestants who contended against the Antinomians.

Protestants, the real ones, not the fake ones, believe that faith produces good works. The stressor is upon faith because we do not believe that you can do good works apart from faith. We work from a place of salvation, not work to get salvation.

 

[WaveMechanic]

"I believe, yes I do, I'm good." My emphasis is warning against this because of human (fallen) reaction and nature.

***It looks like GodfatherPartTwo beat me to the punch, and posted something similar, but far more eloquent than me. However, I will still share my reply***

I can only speak of my own experiences, but I grew up in the United States where most people were raised in Protestant homes.

I do not believe it is common for someone to express such a belief. We all know we are sinners, and that the wages of sin is death. That is the antithesis of good.

We know salvation is a gift from God, and that it has not been earned.

With that said, I believe most Protestants still strive to live their lives in a way which would please God. They fail, but continue to fight, and try to do better.

They do this not because they believe their works will save them, but because they want to please God. God saved them, and now they have been gifted a new heart. The Holy Spirit dwells within them, and convicts them of their sins so that they will turn away from sin, and repent.

The change in behavior is an effect of being saved, not what causes them to be saved.

 

[Matsufubu]

That's how I took James 2: 14-26. That being born again with the Holy Spirit changes your works, because if not then how are you really born again? Your works may get you a higher seat in heaven, but salvation is in faith in Christ alone. Also see Galatians 2:16, John 3:36, John 6:29, John 6:47, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. Otherwise, we might as well be Jehovahs Witnesses.

 

[Blade Runner]

If you say that well meaning Christians aren't saved

There's a whole of lot of assumptions in there, that may or may not matter, and a ton of speculation. Again, since I believe in trusting in God, and also the have been/am being/will be saved (that's in our theology) idea, it of course then depends on what we are talking about. If you agree with us, then why keep bickering about it?

Protestants, the real ones, not the fake ones, believe that faith produces good works.

So do Orthodox.

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

@Matsufubu that's why in James he talks about the demons knowing Jesus Christ is Lord, BUT ... see my point?

 

[analyst_green]

There's a whole of lot of assumptions in there, that may or may not matter, and a ton of speculation. Again, since I believe in trusting in God, and also the have been/am being/will be saved (that's in our theology) idea, it of course then depends on what we are talking about. If you agree with us, then why keep bickering about it?

So do Orthodox.

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

@Matsufubu that's why in James he talks about the demons knowing Jesus Christ is Lord, BUT ... see my point?

The Protestant theology never made sense to me because you can make a completely genuine proclamation of Faith today and completely trust God. But then tomorrow you can fall away and go back to sinning. And if the day of your death finds you in that state, well, how is your salvation guaranteed at all? That's exactly why faithfulness is crucial.

We are in the process of being saved when we trust in Christ, but it's very dangerous to think that we have already been saved when we do not know what the future holds. Many have fallen into deception and lost their souls on account of it. Arguably Judas had faith in Christ at some point in time, but he did not make it. Even the Saints had doubts about whether they would be saved or not on the last day. So the safest course of action is to always stay humble and think of ourselves as sinners who need Christ to save us.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

One of the things I've been trying to convey to you (this proves it but you'll still make an argument out of it, I perceive) is that "faith" meaning a belief that for example, "there is a God" or "Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords" doesn't at all necessarily produce good works. On the other hand (and my elbow from the top rope), faithfulness without a doubt is in fact in line with good works, by definition; that's what it is. Point proven. Accept it or not, that's the reality.

We don't mean by "faith" what you mean by it. We have a deeper, covenantal understanding of what faith means. For us, faith means "trust in Christ." It isn't a mere mental assent to a set of propositions and facts about Christ. It's a covenantal trust that Jesus lived and died for us, and that by doing so, we have been justified by His sacrifice. We believe that this kind of faith does necessarily inspire us to do good works, because the Holy Spirit is at work in us through all of this.

 

[Blade Runner]

Arguably Judas had faith in Christ at some point in time, but he did not make it.

Yes, they need a retrospectoscope to explain this away. Of course, it doesn't work.

We don't mean by "faith" what you mean by it. We have a deeper, covenantal understanding of what faith means. For us, faith means "trust in Christ." It isn't a mere mental assent to a set of propositions and facts about Christ.

Oh, sounds like you have the Orthodox position. Good.

Why you keep arguing and saying I, as an Orthodox Christian, attack the gospel (veiled is what you said, as though I'm some insidious person or sly trickster) is beyond me.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

The Protestant theology never made sense to me because you can make a completely genuine proclamation of Faith today and completely trust God. But then tomorrow you can fall away and go back to sinning. And if the day of your death finds you in that state, well, how is your salvation guaranteed at all? That's exactly why faithfulness is crucial.

This would more of a critique of Catholic theology than Protestant theology. We don't believe that you go in and out of states of grace. We believe that those whom God justified, He will also glorify (divinize). And so our assurance and confidence is not in ourselves, but is in God who began a good work in us. We believe that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. For us, it is not humility to doubt our salvation, it's a lack of faith in God to save us. Our humility is knowing that we could never save ourselves and that we need Jesus to be our Savior.

 

[Blade Runner]

I think I can leave this topic by posting quotes from St. Maximos the Confessor, who if you study his life and read his works, you will certainly be aware that none of us are even close to his holiness and indeed, what he suffered.

He said:

Theology without practice is the theology of demons

and

“Do not say that faith in Christ alone can save you, for this is not possible if you do not attain love for Him, which is demonstrated by deeds. As for mere faith: “The demons also believe and tremble” (James, 2:19). The action of love consists in heartfelt good deeds toward one’s neighbor, magnanimity, patience, and sober use of things.”

I rest my case.

 

[Northern Pilgrim]

This would more of a critique of Catholic theology than Protestant theology. We don't believe that you go in and out of states of grace. We believe that those whom God justified, He will also glorify (divinize). And so our assurance and confidence is not in ourselves, but is in God who began a good work in us. We believe that He who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. For us, it is not humility to doubt our salvation, it's a lack of faith in God to save us. Our humility is knowing that we could never save ourselves and that we need Jesus to be our Savior.

It seems to me you are pushing "once saved, always saved" and Calvinist doctrine, which not all Protestants believe.
Part of the problem in the current day, mainstream, Protestant churches is that they view "being saved" as a one time event, saying a prayer and "accepting Jesus as your Savior", where if you look at repentance it is not just a one time thing, it is aligning your will to God's time and again.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

It seems to me you are pushing "once saved, always saved" and Calvinist doctrine, which not all Protestants believe.
Part of the problem in the current day, mainstream, Protestant churches is that they view "being saved" as a one time event, saying a prayer and "accepting Jesus as your Savior", where if you look at repentance it is not just a one time thing, it is aligning your will to God's time and again.

What kind of Protestant are you? It's not the same kind as the Pilgrims. OSAS is not a strictly Calvinist doctrine. Non-Calvinists believe in it as well.

Protestant churches, to be more precise, view Justification as a one time act in accordance with Romans, not an ongoing process. God declares you righteous on account of faith. The Scripture never speaks of "rejustification" and even rules out the idea that someone could be restored to repentance if they reject the Gospel in Hebrews. 1 John teaching that people who apostatize never really belonged to the church to begin with is also worth mentioning here.

The ongoing process in Scripture is Sanctification, not Justification. Justification is where we can say we are already saved. Sanctification is where we say that we are being saved. Glorification is why we say that we will be saved.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I think I can leave this topic by posting quotes from St. Maximos the Confessor, who if you study his life and read his works, you will certainly be aware that none of us are even close to his holiness and indeed, what he suffered.

He said:


and


I rest my case.

What is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.

(John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, 7.27.)