Bitcoin and Crypto Thread

[Blade Runner]

I notice a clear parallel with devout believers in ideologies like Libertarianism and Communism, which are utopian systems that their proponents claim will solve all of mankind's ills.

This may or may not be the case, but you are trying to tell others what they think. I think a better thing would be to just ask them. When have I stated, for example, that BTC will "solve all of mankind's ills"? "Never" is the answer.

Bitcoin proponents will object by pointing to the nature of Bitcoin rendering it immune to this sort of tampering and abuse, but I say that they simply lack either imagination or sufficient cynicism in regard to the ruthless nature of the power elite. For example, it does not matter that your Bitcoin "cannot be confiscated", because guess what can be easily confiscated? YOU. And no one wants to be physically "confiscated" and tossed in a prison cell because their internet money has been declared illegal or more likely has simply been regulated into uselessness in one manner or another.

I've noticed that a lot of people do what you do here, which is have some complex that the elite have God-like powers. If you think about it, it's weird to claim that others are "utopian" in their thinking, and then in your next paragraph you're the ultimate "We can't do anything to the all powerful state!" dystopia promoter. Even funnier, you ask us to have "imagination" or skepticism to do so!

but their proposed solution is simply completely unrealistic

So you say. However unreal it may seem to you, it is a solution for many of the things that plague man currently. What's your solution, take your beating and plead with the elite Gods for mercy?

As a believer in freedom, they'll get no such pleasure from me.

 

[eradicator]

Hello labs really pumped hard today. I told myself I’d buy in at if it dropped to 10 cents or less. It got down to 11 cents then their new show comes out and it’s back up to 18 cents. Congrats to the guys who bought early it looks solid going into the bull run .

 

[Pointy Elbows]

Does anyone have the demographics of crypto ownership? It appears to be largely white and asian, mostly male. Might be echo chamber stuff, and I know there are Bukele types in the latin world, but I suspect the coming crypto wealth boom will be focused. The guys I know that are deep into crypto are all White or Asian. That will take on its own social dynamic - in time.

 

[chance vought]

@scorpion You are partially correct. I am cynical enough to realize that there will be a fight. But I don’t have the imagination to guess what it will look like.
History says that technology will change the balance of power, from established elites, to new elites. The church banned the number 0, and then the printing press, burning them throughout Europe, yet those things persisted and the Church‘s power waned to insignificance. The information was no longer monopolized by the church, and it’s power disappeared.

Bitcoin takes the monopoly of money away from the nation state, and it’s power with it. It’s just technology. Fighting against it is pointless. Denouncing gun powder as the devils work, while your rivals adopt it, was historically a losing strategy.

Yes the state will lash out, and is lashing out. Julian Assange, Ross Ulbrich, Aaron Swartz, Roman Sterlingov…they are the martyrs, and there will be many more. Killing people didn‘t stop Christianity and it won’t stop Bitcoin either. Bitcoin is truth, mathematics is as true as nature can be. Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it.

Maybe that’s why I sound like a zealot, because Bitcoin is truth. It can’t be cheated. You can’t lie to it, or God. Maybe there is a way, some flaw in the design that would break it. I choose to believe that there is not. Nothing can be proven with 100% certainty. You can’t be certain that Christ was without sin and was born of a virgin either. You believe it or you don’t.

The Renaissance followed the printing press and collapse of church power. It wasn‘t a utopia, but it was a dynamic time for humanity. I see a new one as likely. A technological revolution that shifts the keys of power to new hands, possibly many more hands, decentralized.

 

[scorpion]

This may or may not be the case, but you are trying to tell others what they think. I think a better thing would be to just ask them. When have I stated, for example, that BTC will "solve all of mankind's ills"? "Never" is the answer.

That is basically what chance vought has been saying, and I thought you were in broad agreement with him. But I won't put words in your mouth, of course.

I've noticed that a lot of people do what you do here, which is have some complex that the elite have God-like powers. If you think about it, it's weird to claim that others are "utopian" in their thinking, and then in your next paragraph you're the ultimate "We can't do anything to the all powerful state!" dystopia promoter. Even funnier, you ask us to have "imagination" or skepticism to do so!

It's not that I ascribe the elite godlike powers, I simply recognize reality and refuse to retreat into delusions or utopian fantasies. And the reality is that the power to issue and control currency is the realm of the state/kings/elites, and always has been. As I pointed out, Christ himself said we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, in clear recognition of this reality. There is no realistic future in which tier 1 governments like the U.S., China, Russia and the EU willingly yield arguably their most potent and impactful power - control over their sovereign currency - over to Bitcoin. It's as inconceivable as the governments deciding to summarily abolish themselves and let their citizens do whatever they please. This is not how people, governments and systems behave, and it is not how power is wielded. For this reason, in the long-term, Bitcoin will either be co-opted and neutered (in my view the Bitcoin ETF is the beginning of this process) or destroyed outright and rendered worthless. What it will most certainly not do, however, is become some sort of world reserve currency.

So you say. However unreal it may seem to you, it is a solution for many of the things that plague man currently. What's your solution, take your beating and plead with the elite Gods for mercy?

As a believer in freedom, they'll get no such pleasure from me.

But that's the thing, I don't think there is a solution. The zealous belief in Bitcoin as a financial/economic panacea reminds me of preppers who think that moving to the countryside and stockpiling canned food and ammo while building a self-sustaining homestead is going to save them from the apocalypse. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than delusional cope. In both cases, people want to believe they have some degree of control over their lives, but the harsh reality is that we are all captive to complex systems that are far beyond our ability to influence, much less control.

Utopia will never exist on this side of the grave.

 

[chance vought]

But that's the thing, I don't think there is a solution. The zealous belief in Bitcoin as a financial/economic panacea reminds me of preppers who think that moving to the countryside and stockpiling canned food and ammo while building a self-sustaining homestead is going to save them from the apocalypse. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than delusional cope. In both cases, people want to believe they have some degree of control over their lives, but the harsh reality is that we are all captive to complex systems that are far beyond our ability to influence, much less control.

In the end, it doesn’t matter what government does. You have a choice in your daily life to eat healthy, exercise, and be good to the people you love. You can also choose the best form of savings there is. I don’t care if it’s a government reserve currency or if it’s banned. I will go to where it isn’t banned. The government school psyop is that you don’t have control, but that’s a lie to keep the sheep inside the fences.

I don’t care about changing a complex system, but my actions do have real world consequences and results. Eat healthy, work out, results. Have Bitcoin, results.

In the end, the concept of a reserve currency will be forgotten along with many other anachronistic detritus of the modern era.
Countries will adopt Bitcoin or fade into irrelevance, just as countries that don’t have nukes are irrelevant today. I can’t influence that outcome and really don’t care. Maybe some nation states will cease to exist, and there will be free private cities, and a few slave states leftover.

If Bitcoin is running so hard that it starts getting banned…Bitcoiners will have enough money to start over (or retire) anywhere on the planet.

 

[SCW]

Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but I have been unable to find any answers for what I'm about to ask.

Outside of an exchange, how do most people spend their bitcoin? I've found a reference to Bisq, there are cards like Bitpay and Revolut, but I believe they are only offering their services in the US/EU.

 

[Cynllo]

Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but I have been unable to find any answers for what I'm about to ask.

Outside of an exchange, how do most people spend their bitcoin? I've found a reference to Bisq, there are cards like Bitpay and Revolut, but I believe they are only offering their services in the US/EU.

You can get a SwissQuote or AdvCash card in most countries, which allow you to deposit crypto and add to the card.

Then there are people who buy crypto with physical money. They usually charge 3%.

 

[chance vought]

Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere, but I have been unable to find any answers for what I'm about to ask.

Outside of an exchange, how do most people spend their bitcoin? I've found a reference to Bisq, there are cards like Bitpay and Revolut, but I believe they are only offering their services in the US/EU.

This is tangential to the question, but I don't spend it unless there is a discount for using it, or I am unable or unwilling to use traditional payment systems (buying antibiotics, ivermectin, etc).

With fees what they are, I won't buy anything without Lightning.

It's a savings technology. For now it enables a few verboten purchases, in the future that might include guns and ammo due to Operation Chokepoint, or red meat.

People aren't walking around trying to spend gold coins or Nvidia stock.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Chance Vought, you haven't explained why Bitcoin will be the money of choice for daily transactions in the future?

Even if we for argument's sake accept your assertions that Bitcoin is the de facto superior reserve money you still havn't made the case for why using Bitcoin on a layer 2 (e.g. Lightening network) for buying a cup of coffee or paying your electricity bills is superior to using other crypto currencies for that purpose? I think Cynlo made some good points in regards to this topic.

In many third world countries with high inflation you kind of have three levels of savings. You have the local currency which people use for day to day spending and try to get rid of as quickly as possible.

Then anything which a person might not spend for example within the next few weeks they might change for U.S. dollars or Euros to protect themselves from inflation. This will act as savings for the next few months or year, etc.

Then for even longer term savings people will often buy hard assets like gold or real estate or stocks etc. This is where long term savings goes.

What is to say something similar will not happen in the crypto sphere with Bitcoin being used for long-term savings, and another crypto being for daily transactions etc?

 

[Cynllo]

Network clearance in 2022:
Visa - $222 Billion
Mastercard - $164 Billion
Bitcoin - $8.2 TRILLION

Look up how much Tron or Monero cleared for 2022 and get back to me.

I don't think that is comparable, as the vast majority of that $8.2T is not economic activity. It includes all deposits and withdrawals from exchanges, exchanges and anyone else moving funds around. The real sum is something like $3b.

The Visa figure is north of $10t -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffka...lockchain-product-for-global-money-transfers/

Chance vought even explicitly says that Bitcoin will usher in a golden age of humanity by forever destroying fiat currency.

I think that this space will be part of leading to the end times. The elites are interested in all this tech, because it serves many of their goals. Klaus Schwabb is in on ICP. Blockchain and other related tech can play a big part in removing the need for humans in many areas. e.g. rather than paying 1%+ to the land office for buy a hous, to a realtor, to lawyers etc., such transactions could be done quickly in a small office for $500. Banks are increasingly enforcing a sea of KYC. I think this burden will be used to get people into a system where digital recipts are attached to all transactions. When you open a bank account, theoretically you could just use your crypto key to give them your identity, and give them everything they need. No details. All this tech will be sold on its convenience.

The current masters are looking at how they can use this tech to support their power. But I think it will go more like @chance vought mentions with the printing press etc. They won't be able to wield this power. They will either be replaced with a new elite or computers. You can see similar with kings in the past who encouraged liberalism to gain more wealth. What they promoted ended up decapitating and disestablishing their successors.

Does anyone have the demographics of crypto ownership? It appears to be largely white and asian, mostly male. Might be echo chamber stuff, and I know there are Bukele types in the latin world, but I suspect the coming crypto wealth boom will be focused. The guys I know that are deep into crypto are all White or Asian. That will take on its own social dynamic - in time.

Have a look at the top devs and CEOs in crypto - mostly young European males, with a considerable sample of young Chinese males. Then go in the trading pits. It's about 99.9% young males. I wouldn't be able to give a guage, as obviously the Chins have their own pits. But it's 99% young right-wing males. The one I am in is at times indistinguishable from threads here - JQ, women, etc.

Crypto trading pits are one of the last male bastions left.

If you search you will find some stats and normies worrying about how white and male crypto is.

The most noted women in crypto is Vitalik's mum, who is founder of bloated ETH L2 Metis DAO.

 

[Blade Runner]

What it will most certainly not do, however, is become some sort of world reserve currency.

What is your basis for this statement? Chance answered it, since all fiat is destined to fail, and logically that also means, we don't need world reserve either.

Utopia will never exist on this side of the grave.

I agree.

The government school psyop is that you don’t have control, but that’s a lie to keep the sheep inside the fences.

And scorpion fell for it. That train of thought is exactly the same as the demoralized "they always have power/win" even though history is clear, they do not. It's lazy thinking making any current elite the same as any former one.

Countries will adopt Bitcoin or fade into irrelevance, just as countries that don’t have nukes are irrelevant today.

Precisely. This point can't be countered, so we don't ever see them counter it. But your point of nuclear weapons existing and having MAJOR impact, but not being used, is fantastic. It shows how stupid the "intrinsic value" argument is in one easy step.

It's a savings technology. For now it enables a few verboten purchases, in the future that might include guns and ammo due to Operation Chokepoint, or red meat.

People aren't walking around trying to spend gold coins or Nvidia stock.

Yes. And it's better in every way. Why people can't be honest enough that BTC has outperformed EVERYTHING else for its entire existence is unfathomable, since it's so obviously clear - it makes me laugh.

you haven't explained why Bitcoin will be the money of choice for daily transactions in the future?

STOP confusing currencies with money! This is done all the time and our forum should be better than this. I've stated this many times already on this and multiple other threads.

I think that this space will be part of leading to the end times.

I actually agree with this, which would be an interesting thread in and of itself.

 

[chance vought]

Then for even longer term savings people will often buy hard assets like gold or real estate or stocks etc. This is where long term savings goes.

Guess what is the hardest asset. Savings will flow from these softer assets to the hardest of all.

What is to say something similar will not happen in the crypto sphere with Bitcoin being used for long-term savings, and another crypto being for daily transactions etc?

Because money is winner take all. Whoever chose to continue using glass beads, shells, or rai stones, in the face of the harder money lost everything. They became slaves to people using harder money. Out of 160 currencies in the world, only 1 is money.

 

[larom]

Have a look at the top devs and CEOs in crypto - mostly young European males, with a considerable sample of young Chinese males. Then go in the trading pits. It's about 99.9% young males. I wouldn't be able to give a guage, as obviously the Chins have their own pits. But it's 99% young right-wing males. The one I am in is at times indistinguishable from threads here - JQ, women, etc.

Crypto trading pits are one of the last male bastions left.

Sorry but there is a lot of bad information in this thread & as you can see, this blind belief is a turn off for many.

The top devs in crypto are anonymous. The vast majority of crypto services people rely on (mining pools, staking pools, wallet software, etc) are written by anonymous devs. Vitalik & his team are writing a small portion of the codebase that powers ethereum. Even bitcoin core, most maintainers are not public & they quit all the time due to legal issues.

"Crypto trading pits" are 99.9% bots, the only difference between crypto trading somewhere like binance & stock trading somewhere like TD Ameritrade is binance will give you access to real time orderbooks & automated trading, TD won't. If all you're doing is point & click placing orders, well, the deck is stacked against you & you're better off getting an account at TD because they'll offer you many protections binance/coinbase/etc won't. Unless you know how to parse order books, train your own ML models, do onchain analysis of coin movement, all of this programmatically for price prediction purposes, your days in trading are numbered. I worked in high frequency trading for years.

Idealogy has no place in finance, there's a reason political discussion is banned/frowned upon in any serious finance space, but if you want to speak in those terms it's well known that anything proof of stake (which are most of the top 20 coins) is most definately not "young right wing males" & that entire system is by nature, government worshipping. In all the pos coins you'll see plenty pink unicorn symbolage if you read the docs.

I mean this respectfully, but again, there's a lot of bad info from what I've skimmed on this thread. People who think miners will make money solely off of tx fees don't understand how ASIC printing will work in the future, people who think bitcoin can't be shutdown don't understand how DNS resolution, DDOS, centralized hosting works & basic client/server connections work, and I can go on. Yes, crypto is good, yes it'll change a lot, but those who got in early are not "the chosen ones" & there's still massive amounts of work to be done & in 10 years the entire crypto space is going to look very different than it does now...

 

[Cynllo]

Yes. And it's better in every way. Why people can't be honest enough that BTC has outperformed EVERYTHING else for its entire existence is unfathomable, since it's so obviously clear - it makes me laugh.

When I have tried to get people in at the bottom, like the March 2020 flash crash, and the Nov 2022- bottom, the March 2023 flash crash they always talk about how risky it was to buy. They've been saying it for more than a decade. If they buy, it's about time to take profit.

The top devs in crypto are anonymous.

There are very few major projects where the leads/founders are unknown. Going through the top 30 coins, I think it's only Monero that is lead anonymously.

"Crypto trading pits" are 99.9% bots,

Trading pits specifically refer to human traders. Every one I've been in (online trading communities) have been 99%+ right-wing. In 2021, talking about the fake virus threat was about as common as talking about Bitcoin price action. The rest you have written from there on is an argument you've started with yourself. That is the theme of your post. There are several argumentative points you've made that no one has brought up, within the frame of saying everyone here is stupid. Everyone here has there own take on where this is going. If anyone here gets it right for the right reason, I will take my hat off to them.

The portion of one post you have quoted is correct. Most of the developers, executives and managers are either European or Chinese. Go in pretty much any trading community and it will be almost all young males, and right-wing. There are the unicorn people too, but most crypto is held by young males who skew heavily to the right.

 

[Cynllo]

Come across another very strong looking gamefi play. It has a huge team with some very high level experience.



It's under $50m and is just coming down from a 4X. The chart looks very weak, so might be possible to get in at some subdued prices.

Release looks to be late 2024 to next year, so in time for the bull run. Suspect the price will give a nice low entry, as there is not much news they can cook up until release.

 

[eradicator]

Here is the killer whales tv show produced by hello labs. It’s basically a copycat of shark tank but with crypto projects .

The major difference? The whales never actually offer to get involved in any of the projects, all they do is vote good or bad. That seems strange to me but ok.



It looks like a very similar show to shark tank, if you like shark tank you’ll like this.

 

[Diadem]

The Solana Saga 2 is available for pre-order. The first phone came with a bunch of airdrops that were worth more than the cost of the phone. Anybody buying one of these?

https://two.solanamobile.com/

 

[Australia Sucks]

What is your basis for this statement? Chance answered it, since all fiat is destined to fail, and logically that also means, we don't need world reserve either.

I agree.

And scorpion fell for it. That train of thought is exactly the same as the demoralized "they always have power/win" even though history is clear, they do not. It's lazy thinking making any current elite the same as any former one.

Precisely. This point can't be countered, so we don't ever see them counter it. But your point of nuclear weapons existing and having MAJOR impact, but not being used, is fantastic. It shows how stupid the "intrinsic value" argument is in one easy step.

Yes. And it's better in every way. Why people can't be honest enough that BTC has outperformed EVERYTHING else for its entire existence is unfathomable, since it's so obviously clear - it makes me laugh.

STOP confusing currencies with money! This is done all the time and our forum should be better than this. I've stated this many times already on this and multiple other threads.

I actually agree with this, which would be an interesting thread in and of itself.

Currencies and money have overlapping features and are not mutually exclusive. And some monies are also currencies. In fact being a currency is one of the functions of money.

 

[Australia Sucks]

Guess what is the hardest asset. Savings will flow from these softer assets to the hardest of all.

Because money is winner take all. Whoever chose to continue using glass beads, shells, or rai stones, in the face of the harder money lost everything. They became slaves to people using harder money. Out of 160 currencies in the world, only 1 is money.

You still have not addressed Cynlo's comments about Bitcoin being outdated technology in the crypto sphere and how it may get leap-frogged by a technically/technologically superior crypto within the next 10 - 20 years (or sooner even).