2025 Bible Study Group

[Blade Runner]

For some reason, Eastern Orthodoxy struggles with the Biblical doctrine of predestination.

No we don't, we just clarify that English word with what it actually means. And it doesn't mean what you say it does. Thus, it's not a doctrine. Rather, you are in error, which is the point in bringing it up.

But you know better, developing doctrine 1500 years after the Apostles, not being original practitioners of the faith, not writing the Bible, not defending the faith all in Greek. The basic logic and humility you don't have in admitting that point is disappointing, and I'm being nice.

As for predestined, preordained, predetermined, predesignated, whatever you want to call it, they all mean the same thing in the Scripture which only uses one word for them all in it's original Greek.

That's my point.

The world isn't pre-determined. You use that idea, which by its own definition means that you can't change what's going to happen. That meets head on with free will. So either explain it (that's what I do, and what EO teaches) and/or change the understanding of what you are saying and teaching. That's all.

 

[Samseau]

For some reason, Eastern Orthodoxy struggles with the Biblical doctrine of predestination. And not so much Eastern Orthodoxy as a whole since some can affirm the Bible, but anti-Protestants in particular. They seem to believe in a false dichotomy that if you are predestined, then you are not responsible for your choices; or if you are not predestined, then you are responsible. But It's not either/or. It's both/and. The Scripture teaches that you are both predestined and responsible for your choices.

No actually this is exactly what the Church teaches, it's Calvin and Luther who claim otherwise. This is why there are Prot sects to this day that claim once saved always saved.

The Church teaches that God knows how we will use our free will, which is the message consistent with scripture. Predestined refers both to inanimate objects like the planets on their orbits, and the wills of humans and how they are used. For example, Jesus always knew Judas would betray him, He knew Judas would use his will to deliver him into the hands of sinners. Judas didn't have to, but Christ knew he would. That is what predestination looks like.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

No actually this is exactly what the Church teaches, it's Calvin and Luther who claim otherwise. This is why there are Prot sects to this day that claim once saved always saved.

The Church teaches that God knows how we will use our free will, which is the message consistent with scripture. Predestined refers both to inanimate objects like the planets on their orbits, and the wills of humans and how they are used. For example, Jesus always knew Judas would betray him, He knew Judas would use his will to deliver him into the hands of sinners. Judas didn't have to, but Christ knew he would. That is what predestination looks like.

Then that church is wrong and sub-Biblical.

You keep describing predestination as simple foreknowledge when the Apostles said it was more than that. Drop the man made tradition and believe the Scriptures instead.

It doesn't say, "God only knew that they would crucify Jesus."

It says, "They did what God's hand and purpose predestined them to do."

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

No we don't, we just clarify that English word with what it actually means. And it doesn't mean what you say it does. Thus, it's not a doctrine. Rather, you are in error, which is the point in bringing it up.

You do, which is why you have to redefine what the Bible says. Everybody can read for themselves what it clearly means, and it clearly means more than the Molinist, Jesuit-influenced interpretation of EO apologists.

It's also clear you're not arguing in good faith. You said that God didn't predestinate Jesus to be crucified and I just quoted a Bible verse to you saying that He did.

But you know better, developing doctrine 1500 years after the Apostles, not being original practitioners of the faith, not writing the Bible, not defending the faith all in Greek. The basic logic and humility you don't have in admitting that point is disappointing, and I'm being nice.

Anybody would know better if they took the Scripture as their standard. The Scripture knows better. There is no developed doctrine. The Reformation was about getting rid of all the developed doctrine that primarily Catholicism but also Eastern Orthodoxy, and other groups that claim to be the only true church, invented over the course of 1500 years.

There is a difference in the Greek of the New Testament and the Greek of Orthodox countries. They are not the same. Cyril Lucaris bemoaned that the people in Orthodox countries did not understand the Bible according to it's original Greek, and that was in the 1600s. Even the Greek of the New Testament is not the same as the Greek of the Greek Old Testament, and that was only a few centuries apart. So it's ignorant to flatten out the Greek and ignore the historical nuance in that area.

 

[Samseau]

Then that church is wrong and sub-Biblical.

You keep describing predestination as simple foreknowledge when the Apostles said it was more than that. Drop the man made tradition and believe the Scriptures instead.

It doesn't say, "God only knew that they would crucify Jesus."

It says, "They did what God's hand and purpose predestined them to do."

God's hand and purpose was that they would have free will, and he knew they would choose in the way they did, which is why it was predestined.

You have difficulty grasping this concept, but perhaps one day the Holy Spirit will illuminate you.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Job 24 & 25

Job continues his lament and Bildad comes in again: can Man be right with God? He gives evidences for why men cannot be and he argues for it very well. And while it is true that no man can be right with God left to his own power, it is even more true that any man can be made right with God should God give him grace.

There are times when figures in the Old Testament ask questions like these that anticipate Christ in a not so subtle way. One of my favorite instances of this is when Solomon, having finished building the Temple, asked 'will God indeed dwell on the earth?' He rightfully recognized the transcendence of God, that He is bigger than all His creation and cannot be contained by it, but it only had begun to dawn on him the immanence of God, that that God up there could be so near as well, even so near as to dwell on the earth as the man Christ Jesus and to dwell in your hearts, which is the true Temple of God, by way of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Job 26 & 27

1 Then Job answered and said, 2 “What a help you are to the one without power! How you have saved the arm without strength! 3 What counsel you have given to one without wisdom! What sound wisdom you have abundantly made known! 4 To whom have you declared words? And whose breath comes out from you?

Job replies to Bildad with sarcasm. There's something of note in verse 4. The Hebrew word for breath can also mean spirit. The word is the same and the meaning is interchangeble. The Spirit of God may also be referred to as the Breath of God. The words that you speak are carried out by your breath. The ancients understood that there are spirits behind your words, which is what Job is getting at in verse 4. Job is asking, 'by who's spirit are you speaking?'

Paul picks up on this principle in the New Testament, in 1 Corinthians 12, when he says that "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit." When you reecho God's words, believe and say the things He says, you are doing so by the operation of the Holy Spirit. Paul speaks to the flip side of this as well: "no one speaking by the Spirit of God says that Jesus is accursed." Anyone who denies the Lordship of Christ and commits idolatry does so by the spirit of antichrist.

The Apostle John also says, "Don't believe every spirit but test the spirits to see if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. Every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, but the spirit of antichrist, which is coming and already in the world."

People espouse doctrines and say things that reveal by who's spirit they're speaking. When I hear people say to take pride in sodomy, I know that they are speaking by the spirit of Satan. When they say that they do not deserve God's justice, that they deserve heaven, that they don't need God to save them, when they exalt themselves, they follow in the footsteps of their father the devil and speak by his spirit.

11 The pillars of heaven tremble And are astonished at His rebuke. 12 He quieted the sea with His power, And by His understanding He crushed Rahab.

The ancients understood the sea as emblematic of chaos itself. No man can tame it, but God can. God can bring order to the chaos, and He can bring chaos to order. Think of Christ calming the sea by His rebuke and think of God flooding the world when they had established a murderous order. Rahab does not refer to the woman in Jericho from Joshua. Remember that Job takes place long before that. It is a monster/fallen angel, just like Leviathan, which Job will get into later.

3 For as long as breath is in me, And the spirit from God is in my nostrils, 4 My lips certainly will not speak unrighteousness, Nor will my tongue utter deceit. 5 Far be it from me that I should declare you right; Till I breathe my last I will not remove my integrity from me. 6 I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go. My heart does not reproach any of my days.

Job maintains his case that he is justified and innocent. You too maintain your righteousness, not that you never have done anything wrong, but that Christ did everything right in your place.