Sources for the Old Testament

[Blade Runner]

Then what was the point of your hit-and-run "you don't have the ability to understand these complex issues" post?

I'm echoing how complex the insistence on "scriptures" is, particularly apart from the church. It proves the Orthodox point, basically. The more you study it the more you realize how open the framework can be if you don't have the Church to guide you, like it guided the Ethiopian eunuch who as earnest, reading out loud.

The problem with human beings and "religion" in general is that most people devolved to simpleton understanding so as to get rid of the complexities of life. They'd rather have a manageable box for God and a manuscript that just tells you what to do (Islam, nation of Islam, protestants rejecting "traditions") is far more palatable. The grand desire for people to justify themselves is in this, as well as those who want "security" of "salvation" etc. These are all far more ego related than anyone wants to admit, and are actually base/natural man inclinations for any human - they are in many ways a worldly survival tactic. Interesting thing to think about.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

They'd rather have a manageable box for God and a manuscript that just tells you what to do (Islam, nation of Islam, protestants rejecting "traditions") is far more palatable. The grand desire for people to justify themselves is in this, as well as those who want "security" of "salvation" etc.

We were talking about liberal theories about the Scriptures that would discredit the Christian doctrine of God. You don't need to join the Orthodox church to see that they have no substantive evidence for their claims. You seem to be more interested in thinly-veiled Prot bashing. As for people wanting security or assurance of salvation, I'll give you points for being honest that the Orthodox church can't and won't offer that to people.

 

[Blade Runner]

As for people wanting security or assurance of salvation,

We don't have to go on and on about this, but do you think it's "assured"? Or one can know even levels of this? It seems like an illogical point, but we've talked a bit on it.

We were talking about liberal theories about the Scriptures that would discredit the Christian doctrine of God.

What was the most outstanding to you that "discredits" God?

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

What was the most outstanding to you that "discredits" God?

The idea that Elohim and Yahweh refer to separate deities and the Scriptures were retroactively edited by the Yahwists to syncretize them into one deity. The assertion is that monotheism is a further development in the religion.

 

[Blade Runner]

The assertion is that monotheism is a further development in the religion.

Ok. Do you recognize that 2nd temple jews and people of the ancient world did have a framework for many "gods" it's just that only one is over all the others (He defeats them, the others are actually demons, etc).

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Ok. Do you recognize that 2nd temple jews and people of the ancient world did have a framework for many "gods" it's just that only one is over all the others (He defeats them, the others are actually demons, etc).

Yes, I've read the New Testament. This doesn't have anything to do with YHWH vs Elohim as separate deities.

 

[KulturedKaveman]

The idea that Elohim and Yahweh refer to separate deities and the Scriptures were retroactively edited by the Yahwists to syncretize them into one deity. The assertion is that monotheism is a further development in the religion.

I don’t think they saw Yahweh and Elohim as separate deities, but it refers to source materials when they refer to the Elohimist, Yahwist, and Priestly source materials. The idea of Jehovah (a mispelling of Yahweh) and Elohim being two gods sounds more like a Mormon view. I think it was the three groups (E, Y, P) had different theologies, but they believed in the same deity.

 

[Samseau]

This thread is to discuss the origins of the OT.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I don’t think they saw Yahweh and Elohim as separate deities, but it refers to source materials when they refer to the Elohimist, Yahwist, and Priestly source materials. The idea of Jehovah (a mispelling of Yahweh) and Elohim being two gods sounds more like a Mormon view. I think it was the three groups (E, Y, P) had different theologies, but they believed in the same deity.

It depends on who's version of the JEDP Theory you're going with.

There are proponents who do say that they were indeed separate deities: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_History_of_God

This article is a good answer for why the JEDP Theory should be rejected entirely: https://www.gotquestions.org/JEDP-theory.html

Bottom line, there is no external evidence for it. There is no manuscript evidence that these were separate deities, it does not come up in Jewish or Christian history. It's really nothing more than reading too much into God having multiple names.