The Collapse of the All-Good God

[GoodShepherd]

I find this interesting since the Scriptures literally say the opposite:

Romans 2:4:
Do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

God doesn't need to make people suffer to get them to repent. Salvation is the product of God's kindness and mercy, not us proving how tough we are for enduring suffering.

I dont know why but for some reason us human beings when our bellies are full and we are living in too much comfort snd pleasure, we are not as grateful or repentant, me personally when Im going through tough times and difficulties thats when I want to pray more and try and be more devout and more repentant.

I dont see a difference between what you just said because yes God is truly kind and good and only good, you will also find in scripture likein book of Hebrews I think or Corinthians where it talks about us not enjoying the bitter medicines that God gives us to cure our souls, and it also makes the comparison of how children receive dicipline from their parents but while they are young they dont enjoy or understand that those unpleasant diciplines are for their own good, to save them, I see it in that way now even if I dont have full understanding why I just trust God that somehow Im deserving of it and that somehow its going to be for my good and my salvation and this is just something for this temporal life, if we make it into God eternal kingdom in the next life the scriptures say we wont even remember our past sufferings it wont even come to mind.

 

[Blade Runner]

Isn't the traditional Christian understanding that God does have power over Demiurge/Satan and that He eventually will win the ultimate victory over him but for now He is allowing Satan to have at least some influence/power in creation?

Yes. By the way, this is a great thread. I appreciate the contributions and thoughts or questions.

Other examples would be the crucifixion of Jesus, the most evil thing that ever happened in human history and yet it was God's will. I find the Biblical solution to theodicy in Genesis 50: "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

Indeed. Christians, especially weak ones used to the good life and materialism of the west (which I'm part of, Lord have mercy) frequently are scandalized by bad things happening in this life, yet fail to call to mind that our God told us that "if they did this to the Master, what do you expect they would do to the students?" (Matthew 10, John 15). This is a very hard teaching for people to accept. The disappointing thing is that it's the entire basis of our faith. It's really hard for people to focus on "help me get through this with strength" rather than "Why?" and blame games.

The difficulty (for me) is that this does not actually resolve the problem of evil, it relocates it. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and the ultimate ground of being, then any space in which Satan operates freely is a space God intentionally authored and sustains. Allowing is not morally neutral when one has absolute foreknowledge and absolute power. The distinction between actively causing and knowingly permitting collapses at that level of sovereignty.

Read my comments on the temporal nature of "this world". Again, all of this only matters if this is the only place or this is all that there is.

I believe his stance was basically even though God is more powerful than any other being, He is still not so powerful where He can prevent all the evil that happens in the universe.

I like to point out that there are paradoxically things that God can't do, which is a funny comment. It's not about technical "can't" though, because it's that he won't because ontologically that's not what He is, and he is true and integrous. Regarding linguistis for us humans, though, I'm OK with saying he can't lie or be faithless, etc. In his love he won't infringe on your free will either, since that's a component of loving someone.

"Suffering/evil is necessary for free will" is one of the biggest said-no-verses ever that most Christians still believe. Such a system actually turns sin into the greatest good.

This gets it backward. One can't show love or as I've said, acquire character or the virtues unless tested by challenges, that is, an imperfect world. We wouldn't be able to show our love (or pick virtue) truly without there being a need for love due to difficult circumstances or emotional lability, etc.

God doesn't need to make people suffer to get them to repent. Salvation is the product of God's kindness and mercy, not us proving how tough we are for enduring suffering.

He doesn't need to, no, we just generally don't change unless we hit difficulty.

I dont know why but for some reason us human beings when our bellies are full and we are living in too much comfort snd pleasure, we are not as grateful or repentant, me personally when Im going through tough times and difficulties thats when I want to pray more and try and be more devout and more repentant.

It happens both ways for me. I've found more recently that when I feel bad in the mood or energy sense, I'm only likely to suffer through it and just try to be grateful for all the things in my life, and times I have felt much better. When I feel good I want to do more and read more or try to fast more, etc. But I still ignore things when feeling 100%, I must say - another frailty or ignorant part of being human.

 

[GoodShepherd]

Yes. By the way, this is a great thread. I appreciate the contributions and thoughts or questions.

Indeed. Christians, especially weak ones used to the good life and materialism of the west (which I'm part of, Lord have mercy) frequently are scandalized by bad things happening in this life, yet fail to call to mind that our God told us that "if they did this to the Master, what do you expect they would do to the students?" (Matthew 10, John 15). This is a very hard teaching for people to accept. The disappointing thing is that it's the entire basis of our faith. It's really hard for people to focus on "help me get through this with strength" rather than "Why?" and blame games.

Read my comments on the temporal nature of "this world". Again, all of this only matters if this is the only place or this is all that there is.

I like to point out that there are paradoxically things that God can't do, which is a funny comment. It's not about technical "can't" though, because it's that he won't because ontologically that's not what He is, and he is true and integrous. Regarding linguistis for us humans, though, I'm OK with saying he can't lie or be faithless, etc. In his love he won't infringe on your free will either, since that's a component of loving someone.

This gets it backward. One can't show love or as I've said, acquire character or the virtues unless tested by challenges, that is, an imperfect world. We wouldn't be able to show our love (or pick virtue) truly without there being a need for love due to difficult circumstances or emotional lability, etc.

He doesn't need to, no, we just generally don't change unless we hit difficulty.

It happens both ways for me. I've found more recently that when I feel bad in the mood or energy sense, I'm only likely to suffer through it and just try to be grateful for all the things in my life, and times I have felt much better. When I feel good I want to do more and read more or try to fast more, etc. But I still ignore things when feeling 100%, I must say - another frailty or ignorant part of being human.

Dont get me wrong I too enjoy going to church and reading etc when things are good but people in general will humble themselves more and repent during world war 3 or if they receive a death sentence from doctor compared to carnival season and times of feasting if you know what I mean. When things are really bad and emergencies thats when I will try go the extra mile and pray on my knees late at night even if Im tiered.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

I dont know why but for some reason us human beings when our bellies are full and we are living in too much comfort snd pleasure, we are not as grateful or repentant, me personally when Im going through tough times and difficulties thats when I want to pray more and try and be more devout and more repentant.

The faithless man will find reasons to disbelieve whether he is in the good or bad times. Likewise, the faithful man will believe in both the good and bad times.

You've extolled the positives of the bad times, but you haven't listed out the negatives. If God needs to coerce you to repent then what does that say about your heart? Do you really love God or do you go through the motions out of fear of punishment? No one has ever been saved by dread of the Law but they have been saved by the infinite mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:11-13:
I do not speak from a place of wanting, for I learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in abundance; in any and all things I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

 

[GoodShepherd]

The faithless man will find reasons to disbelieve whether he is in the good or bad times. Likewise, the faithful man will believe in both the good and bad times.

You've extolled the positives of the bad times, but you haven't listed out the negatives. If God needs to coerce you to repent then what does that say about your heart? Do you really love God or do you go through the motions out of fear of punishment? No one has ever been saved by dread of the Law but they have been saved by the infinite mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

Its an act of love from God is what Im saying, when it happens, I do pray that God keeps me humble and on the straight and narrow when I stray.

We dont always understand things, for example, there was a certain saint who told a certain woman that her child was about to die in 3 days time, the woman was upset and asked that this wont happen, the saint wxplained that the child had developed a certain passion that cannot be fixed and if that child grows up he will destroy 40 families, so as an act of mercy for the child and everyone else God was taking him while young.