Troubles in the Greek Church

[Samseau]

This thread is to discuss the troubles within the Greek Church. It's open for all Christians to discuss, so that others may be educated and pray for salvation, but also, so that perhaps secular solutions and insights are offered as well. The situation is rather complex, because Greeks are always having disputes with one another for all sorts of reasons that are generally unrelated.

To understand the Greek Church, one must understand there are three major parts of the Greek Church:

1. The Church of Greece, which is located in Greece proper. Home to the Athonite monks and many devout Orthodox.
2. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (EP), which technically is supposed to be open to all Orthodox, in practice is limited to the Greeks since to be a part of the Phanar one must be a citizen of Turkey. This means the Turkish government has a huge hand in determining the EP, which effectively makes one of the most symbolic positions of Orthodoxy is nothing more than a political appointment for Greeks to monopolize. The Turkish government merely strips away citizenship from any Orthodox who doesn't do Turkey's bidding, and the Turks generally will do the bidding of NATO and the State dept. This is on top of the fact that there are very few Orthodox remaining in Turkey after the genocides following WW1.
3. The Greek Orthodox Church of America (GOA), which is run by a Metropolitan, who is appointed by the EP. Probably the richest part of the Greek Church overall, and has become fat and decadent (more on this below).

If any Greeks want to chime in here, and correct the above, please by all means do so. I'm not an expert, although I've had more exposure than most.

Now, a primer to Greek troubles, you can read this article:

Controversy erupts over Archbishop Elpidophoros | eKathimerini.com

Efforts are under way to address mounting tension in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, centered on Archbishop Elpidophros, though some circles speak of imminent developments in the coming days.

www.ekathimerini.com

The grievances


But what of the grievances being expressed with regard to Archbishop Elpidophoros? It appears that there have been multiple complaints and protests over the way that he has been handling the archdiocese’s affairs. More specifically, these concern apparent tension with a large number of metropolitan bishops that is making cooperation dysfunctional, efforts on the archbishop’s part to radically change the way the archdiocese operates and suggestions that he is seeking ways of endowing himself with more powers.

Other sources speak of his inability to adapt to the ways of the Archdiocese of America, which are completely different to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, arguing that this is the root cause of the constant tension with the bishops and other members of the clergy.

On the other hand, associates of Elpidophoros say that he is coming under fire because he wants to introduce changes that will improve the way the archdiocese operates. These changes are affecting parties who are seeing powers and financial rewards they never should have enjoyed in the first place being restricted, and who have banded together against the archbishop.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has not shared his views on the essential aspects of the controversy, not even with his closest associates. He had traveled to Italy last Tuesday for a prior engagement, so any developments concerning the matter at hand are expected to take place this week.

An individual close to the patriarch’s inner circle, however, says that there have been no signs suggesting that the Patriarchate may be displeased with the archbishop of America, as opposed to past instances where the Patriarchate had to weigh in on matters concerning hierarchs under its jurisdiction and where it expressed its perturbation openly. According to the same individual, the problem appears to stem from the “exaggerated sensitivities” of certain people when it comes to the archbishop.

Divided diaspora

The situation with the Archdiocese of America is extremely unpleasant and very thorny, and it has caused a rift in the Greek-American community, a part of which has openly sided with Elpidophoros and supports his choices, while hailing the work he has done so far.

The president of the American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association (AHEPA), Savas Tsivicos, actually sent a letter to Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, in which he dismissed the accusations against Elpidophoros as baseless, ascribing them to personal and possibly financial motives. He also pointed out certain important achievements made by Elpidophoros since taking over at the helm of the Archdiocese of America in 2019, such as completing the project of the Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and National Shrine at the World Trade Center and reviving the institution of Greek-Orthodox communities, among others. Tsivicos went on to request a meeting with the patriarch in mid-January to discuss the matter in greater detail.

In the rival camp, which is also quite significant in number, critics of the archbishop accuse him of pursuing a “divide and conquer” policy and of carrying out his duty in an unconventional way that causes problems for the archdiocese’s hierarchs and prevents them from doing their job. They also argue that his approach to the archdiocese’s affairs is eroding the Greek Orthodox Church’s influence and prestige, with many critics pointing in particular to the Elpidophoros’ presence at the inauguration of the Turkish House in New York in September 2021, an event that was also attended by the head of the Turkish-occupied north of Cyprus, Ersin Tatar.

Each side insists on its own truth, though the ecumenical patriarch is the one who has the final say. In the meantime, it is an issue that needs to be handled tactfully, since much is at stake, as the controversy is not purely of an ecclesiastical nature but has the ability to affect, among others, aspects of foreign policy and the Hellenic presence in other parts of the world.

As far as the matter of the Greek government’s concerns and how they were conveyed to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, people close to Elpidophoros speak of over-reactions, while referring to the meetings the archbishop of America had with the Greek prime minister in July in Athens and in September in New York. Deputy Minister Papadopoulou’s intervention, of course, points to concern at the highest level of government, with well-informed sources noting, in reference to the two meetings, “that relations with the Archdiocese of America are not black or white.”

So, the main takeaway here are problems over finances. Money is a big part of the evils plaguing the Greek Church. This is because the Church of Greece has historically been quite poor, but with their freedom from the Ottoman Empire millions of Greeks emigrated to America. Many of them became very successful and wealthy, and this money then flooded back into the Greek Church at home. The new rising standard of wealth crept into the ranks of the expectations of the clergy, who are now the highest paid clerics in Orthodoxy.

For example, here is the starting salary for Orthodox Priests in America:

GOA: 70K
Antiochian: 50K
OCA: 30K

And that's just starting salary for Greeks. Bonuses go up depending on how many parishioners one can attract, or other bonuses. I've even heard of some senior Greek Priests pulling in 200K, which seems ridiculous to me and I'm not even sure I believe in such rumors. On top of this are generous retirement packages, health care incentives, etc.

The costs of the GOA have steadily increased over the decades, but, conversely, membership in the GOA has declined more than any other Orthodox Church in America. If the reports of Orthodox Reality are to be believed, the GOA has lost around 1/4 of it's membership to apostasy in the past decade. https://orthodoxreality.org/reports/ Meanwhile other Orthodox Churches membership remains steady or increasing.

I believe the reasons for the decline of the GOA is because of their dogged insistence to keep their entire Devine Liturgy in Greek; this makes it virtually impossible for non-Greek speakers to join their parish. Antiochian and OCA Churches, by contrast, have lost probably anywhere from 30-50% of their cradle populations to apostasy, but make up for these losses with huge conversions of Protestants. Protestants whose Churches have died in the past century find refuge in Orthodox Churches, which is why Orthodoxy in America, overall, grows (so far slowly though). Orthodoxy would have grown a lot more if Greek Churches would actually speak English in their services.

Antiochian services, for example, have a requirement of at least 50% of their Divine Liturgy in English, whereas there are hundreds of Greek parishes that only speak Greek, which is a sin as far as I'm concerned. Not evangelizing to others in a foreign country is quite literally disobedience to Jesus. And this has impacted the Greek Church, and Orthodoxy as a whole, dramatically. For Greeks probably have the largest presence of Orthodoxy in America, and this gives the impression of Orthodox Churches being ethnic clubs. This angers me greatly.

I personally have been in several Greek American Churches that are almost empty on Sundays, while there are one or two chanters speaking in Greek. If I wasn't raised Orthodox, I'd have no idea as to what is going on in the service. So I tend to believe the numbers at Orthodox Reality; GOA is dying badly due to a lack of evangelization, which should always be the bread and butter of American Churches, considering the heavy immigration here.

As a result, donations have been drying up at Greek Churches, along with the membership, even while the costs of their clergy have been increasing! Thus to make ends meet, Greeks have been forced to become more and more reliant on big donors. In the words of one powerful Greek man I spoke to who knows his Church well, "People don't donate. Most of our funds come from big donors."

Who are these donors? No one really knows for sure, but speculation is intense and hostile. For example, one sees stuff like this with the current metropolitan Elpidophoros:

Archbishop of America: Panamanian "philoxenia" is legendary

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America on his first day in Panama, had the opportunity to visit the St. John Paul II Center and learn about the incredible efforts to support those battling homelessness and drug addiction. He was warmly welcomed by Ariel López, the Director of the Center. Later at Hogar…

orthodoxtimes.com

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America on his first day in Panama, had the opportunity to visit the St. John Paul II Center and learn about the incredible efforts to support those battling homelessness and drug addiction.


He was warmly welcomed by Ariel López, the Director of the Center. Later at Hogar Luisa, Director Jorge Ayala was briefed on their commendable work assisting migrants.

At Kol Shearith Israel Synagogue, we were greeted by Rabbi Gustavo Kraselnik, Head of the Synagogue and President of the Interreligious Committee of Panama.

Archbishop Elpidophoros Toast at the Ecumenical Luncheon Congregación Kol Shearith Israel, Panama City, Panama​

Dear Rabbi Gustavo (Kraselnik) – our host today,
Your Excellency Archbishop Ulloa,
Dear Sisters and Brothers,
The Abrahamic hospitality of this fellowship today is such a cause of joy and gratitude for me, because your embrace of my presence here in wondrous Panama is an example of the best and the brightest in true interfaith and ecumenical cooperation.
Panamanian “philoxenia’ (if you will allow me to employ the Greek word for “hospitality”) is legendary, and you have worthily represented it today.
Truly, my esteemed brethren, if our human family could achieve a measure of the hospitality that is manifested in all our cultures and civilizations, our modern world would be a better place. And this is where all religions have a role to play, for all faiths practice the “love of the stranger” that is the fundamental meaning of hospitality, the literal meaning of the Greek, “philoxenia.”
For the stranger is vulnerable, like Moses in Egypt, who named his son, “Gershom,” for as he said: “I have been a stranger in a strange land.”*
The appearance of the Angels to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre becomes for the Orthodox Christian Church a theophany of the Holy Trinity and the most famous icon in the world.
Jesus taught that every human being is our neighbor and that we should love them as we love ourselves. †
Even the ancient Greeks invoked Ζεύς Ξένιος, the patron of hospitality, and the avenger of those who refused to welcome the stranger into their midst.
When I am in the midst of such a demonstration of loving welcome, I feel very much at home, in the presence of true human brothers and sisters.
In our ecumenical and interfaith endeavors, I pray that we will always be committed to tearing down the supposed walls that seem to separate us, and to use those planks to build even larger tables of fellowship and welcome.
We all belong to this planet earth, and the generations that come after us will share it as well. Therefore, I lift my glass in gratitude to you and in honor of our common human nature. May we all find the grace and strength to always teach and preach this fundamental unity of humankind.
To your health and the health of beautiful Panama!
* Exodus 2:22.
† Matthew 22:39.

Were these Talmuds actually friendly to Jesus? Or are they seeking merely to show off how they can buy Christians? Also, notice the part I bolded in the quote above: "Jesus taught every human being is our neighbor," - this is false, bordering on heresy. The quote is from Matt 22:39, but that is just a truncated version of the full teaching of what a Neighbor is. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Christ clearly indicates that only the Samaritan is the Neighbor, while the others who walk on by the wounded man are not Neighbors, for example.

So Elpidophoros plays fast and loose with scripture in order to curry favor with the rich and powerful, it seems. We can see it again here:

Archbishop of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson at Temple Emanu-El, the first Reform Jewish congregation in NYC, on the Upper East Side in Manhattan. The Archbishop wished him and the Jewish community, located in the same neighborhood as the Archdiocese Headquarters, a...

orthodoxtimes.com

Archbishop of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson​

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson at Temple Emanu-El, the first Reform Jewish congregation in NYC, on the Upper East Side in Manhattan.

The Archbishop wished him and the Jewish community, located in the same neighborhood as the Archdiocese Headquarters, a blessed Hanukkah.

A "reform" Talmud being given a gift? What for? Does anyone seriously believe this guy is converting to the King of Jews?

The result of this has been creating a schism within the GOA, which is why the "Genunine Orthodox Church" exists, they are Greeks who broke away from the EP and the Metropolitan, because they believe the Greek Church is selling it's soul for some shekels so that Greek Priests in America can continue their rich lifestyles while refusing to preach in English.

See what I mean by complicated? A serious of unrelated issues all combining into a perfect hellstorm.

The end result of all the above is a "Peloponnesian War" type of conflict within the Greek Church, where the Church of Greece is disgusted with the EP and Metropolitan, while the GOA continues to suffer and lose members due to some ridiculous insistence on remaining an ethnic club. The Greeks love to pretend how "anti-Racist" they are, yet while only preaching in their own tribal tongue. In many ways, they have become as hypocritical as Talmudic Jews, who also pretend not to be racist while being extremely tribal at the same time.

Luckily, because the Orthodox Church is self-contained within it's respective nationalities, the OCA, Russian, and Antiochian Churches are doing just fine if not thriving. Within Russia, under Putin, for example, the Russian Church is booming. This is a major advantage the Orthodox have over the Catholics, for example; a single guy at the top cannot make life miserable for everyone. That said, things really suck for the Greeks right now, and I actually attended a major Greek seminary exploratory program and there is a major disconnect between the clergy at the top and bottom.

Some of the seminaries were saying stuff like, "Just keep your head down, shut up, get your degree, and get the HELL out of here!!" It's that bad. The Greek Church needs major reforms and changes, but due to international politics, ethnic pride, and love of money, everything seems to be coming apart for them. There was a brave Metropolitan who tried to perform these reforms decades ago, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyridon_of_America, but because he tried to lower clergy's salaries while opening up the Church to English speakers he instead made a ton of enemies and was deposed. Rather than accept a lowering of his rank, Spyridon retired in disgust.

So, please pray for the Greeks, but also, if anyone is Greek or knows Greeks, try to talk some sense into them. They need to preach in English while in America, and they need to stop with the Talmudic butt kissing. Things may come to a head in the future with the Church of Greece breaking away from the EP as well and forming a full blown schism (this will be the second time it's happened).

My apologies to anyone I offend with the above; I've done my best to be as accurate and truthful as possible. Don't hesitate to correct or dispute anything I've written.

 

[GoodShepherd]

I attend a Greek church in South Africa and it doesnt seem to be like this, my parish priest isnt even a greek although he has learnt Greek and is fluent in it, one of the deacons is also not Greek and there are a few new people attending and being baptised who are not Greek, myself included, the liturgy is mixed with Greek and English, the sermons are all english but Iv noticed lately that more and more the liturgy is becoming more and more english, my priest is a monk and was baptised on mt Athos and he has also been to Russia and he like the Russians a lot too he even did a mid week service some prayer of saint Andrews and he did it in a Russian tone not Greek, I know some of the first Greeks who went to America were actually slaves

 

[Iacobus]

Nice post. I have attended a local Greek parish a few times and once the priest during his homily made a statement along the lines of "let's not forget - we're all going to Heaven," which is outrageous. Forgive me for paraphrasing as he may not have been *quite* that explicit in his exact words but the implication was 100% there. Their church and service were beautiful, however I did not enjoy the pews.

We for sure must pray for them in their struggle, Greece has such a rich history of Orthodoxy, I can't believe that they will allow the EP to lead them to ecumenism or schism. I have however in some conversations with their parishioners noticed similar cope tactics to those employed by Roman Catholics. Lord have mercy!

 

[Jericho]

The problems you mentioned above are very accurate. I attend a GOA parish. Many of the original Greek-American parishioners have fallen into apostasy. The majority of regular attendees do not speak Greek. However, they insist on speaking/chanting about 50% of the services in Greek. Our parish has been downgraded to “Mission” status.

The salary schedule for GOARCH priests is very high. In addition, the parish has to cover the cost of benefits and retirement. So, if a priest has 10 years of service, the cost to the parish ends up being $120,000/year. This may be typical in other jurisdictions so I’m not making a judgement whether this is acceptable or not. I’m just addressing this to explain how financially taxing this is on a struggling parish. Because of this we have had to use retired priests and interim priests. I will add that I was surprised to find out how many ordained priests there are in GOARCH who do not want to be assigned full-time to a parish. Many would rather be a college professor or hospital chaplain.

Many of the Greek members do not trust the EP nor Archbishop Elpidophoros because both are Turks.

However, with all of these problems, we have had a lot of interest from heterodox. People are attending regularly and becoming catechumens. It’s at a much slower pace to replace the aging parishioners and those who have left the Church.

 

[TCOCBR18]

This thread is to discuss the troubles within the Greek Church. It's open for all Christians to discuss, so that others may be educated and pray for salvation, but also, so that perhaps secular solutions and insights are offered as well. The situation is rather complex, because Greeks are always having disputes with one another for all sorts of reasons that are generally unrelated.

To understand the Greek Church, one must understand there are three major parts of the Greek Church:

1. The Church of Greece, which is located in Greece proper. Home to the Athonite monks and many devout Orthodox.
2. The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (EP), which technically is supposed to be open to all Orthodox, in practice is limited to the Greeks since to be a part of the Phanar one must be a citizen of Turkey. This means the Turkish government has a huge hand in determining the EP, which effectively makes one of the most symbolic positions of Orthodoxy is nothing more than a political appointment for Greeks to monopolize. The Turkish government merely strips away citizenship from any Orthodox who doesn't do Turkey's bidding, and the Turks generally will do the bidding of NATO and the State dept. This is on top of the fact that there are very few Orthodox remaining in Turkey after the genocides following WW1.
3. The Greek Orthodox Church of America (GOA), which is run by a Metropolitan, who is appointed by the EP. Probably the richest part of the Greek Church overall, and has become fat and decadent (more on this below).

If any Greeks want to chime in here, and correct the above, please by all means do so. I'm not an expert, although I've had more exposure than most.

Now, a primer to Greek troubles, you can read this article:

Controversy erupts over Archbishop Elpidophoros | eKathimerini.com

Efforts are under way to address mounting tension in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, centered on Archbishop Elpidophros, though some circles speak of imminent developments in the coming days.

www.ekathimerini.com

So, the main takeaway here are problems over finances. Money is a big part of the evils plaguing the Greek Church. This is because the Church of Greece has historically been quite poor, but with their freedom from the Ottoman Empire millions of Greeks emigrated to America. Many of them became very successful and wealthy, and this money then flooded back into the Greek Church at home. The new rising standard of wealth crept into the ranks of the expectations of the clergy, who are now the highest paid clerics in Orthodoxy.

For example, here is the starting salary for Orthodox Priests in America:

GOA: 70K
Antiochian: 50K
OCA: 30K

And that's just starting salary for Greeks. Bonuses go up depending on how many parishioners one can attract, or other bonuses. I've even heard of some senior Greek Priests pulling in 200K, which seems ridiculous to me and I'm not even sure I believe in such rumors. On top of this are generous retirement packages, health care incentives, etc.

The costs of the GOA have steadily increased over the decades, but, conversely, membership in the GOA has declined more than any other Orthodox Church in America. If the reports of Orthodox Reality are to be believed, the GOA has lost around 1/4 of it's membership to apostasy in the past decade. https://orthodoxreality.org/reports/ Meanwhile other Orthodox Churches membership remains steady or increasing.

I believe the reasons for the decline of the GOA is because of their dogged insistence to keep their entire Devine Liturgy in Greek; this makes it virtually impossible for non-Greek speakers to join their parish. Antiochian and OCA Churches, by contrast, have lost probably anywhere from 30-50% of their cradle populations to apostasy, but make up for these losses with huge conversions of Protestants. Protestants whose Churches have died in the past century find refuge in Orthodox Churches, which is why Orthodoxy in America, overall, grows (so far slowly though). Orthodoxy would have grown a lot more if Greek Churches would actually speak English in their services.

Antiochian services, for example, have a requirement of at least 50% of their Divine Liturgy in English, whereas there are hundreds of Greek parishes that only speak Greek, which is a sin as far as I'm concerned. Not evangelizing to others in a foreign country is quite literally disobedience to Jesus. And this has impact the Greek Church, and Orthodoxy as a whole, dramatically. For Greeks probably have the largest presence of Orthodoxy in America, and this gives the impression of Orthodox Churches being ethnic clubs. This angers me greatly.

I personally have been in several Greek American Churches that are almost empty on Sundays, while there are one or two chanters speaking in Greek. If I wasn't raised Orthodox, I'd have no idea as to what is going on in the service. So I tend to believe the numbers at Orthodox Reality; GOA is dying badly due to a lack of evangelization, which should always be the bread and butter of American Churches, considering the heavy immigration here.

As a result, donations have been drying up at Greek Churches, along with the membership, even while the costs of their clergy have been increasing! Thus to make ends meet, Greeks have been forced to become more and more reliant on big donors. In the words of one powerful Greek man I spoke to who knows his Church well, "People don't donate. Most of our funds come from big donors."

Who are these donors? No one really knows for sure, but speculation is intense and hostile. For example, one sees stuff like this with the current metropolitan Elpidophoros:

Archbishop of America: Panamanian "philoxenia" is legendary

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America on his first day in Panama, had the opportunity to visit the St. John Paul II Center and learn about the incredible efforts to support those battling homelessness and drug addiction. He was warmly welcomed by Ariel López, the Director of the Center. Later at Hogar…

orthodoxtimes.com

Were these Talmuds actually friendly to Jesus? Or are they seeking merely to show off how they can buy Christians? Also, notice the part I bolded in the quote above: "Jesus taught every human being is our neighbor," - this is false, bordering on heresy. The quote is from Matt 22:39, but that is just a truncated version of the full teaching of what a Neighbor is. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Christ clearly indicates that only the Samaritan is the Neighbor, while the others who walk on by the wounded man are not Neighbors, for example.

So Elpidophoros plays fast and loose with scripture in order to curry favor with the rich and powerful, it seems. We can see it again here:

Archbishop of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson

Archbishop Elpidophoros of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson at Temple Emanu-El, the first Reform Jewish congregation in NYC, on the Upper East Side in Manhattan. The Archbishop wished him and the Jewish community, located in the same neighborhood as the Archdiocese Headquarters, a...

orthodoxtimes.com

Archbishop of America visited Senior Rabbi Joshua Davidson​

A "reform" Talmud being given a gift? What for? Does anyone seriously believe this guy is converting to the King of Jews?

The result of this has been creating a schism within the GOA, which is why the "Genunine Orthodox Church" exists, they are Greeks who broke away from the EP and the Metropolitan, because they believe the Greek Church is selling it's soul for some shekels so that Greek Priests in America can continue their rich lifestyles while refusing to preach in English.

See what I mean by complicated? A serious of unrelated issues all combining into a perfect hellstorm.

The end result of all the above is a "Peloponnesian War" type of conflict within the Greek Church, where the Church of Greece is disgusted with the EP and Metropolitan, while the GOA continues to suffer and lose members due to some ridiculous insistence on remaining an ethnic club. The Greeks love to pretend how "anti-Racist" they are, yet while only preaching in their own tribal tongue. In many ways, they have become as hypocritical as Talmudic Jews, who also pretend not to be racist while being extremely tribal at the same time.

Luckily, because the Orthodox Church is self-contained within it's respective nationalities, the OCA, Russian, and Antiochian Churches are doing just fine if not thriving. Within Russia, under Putin, for example, the Russian Church is booming. This is a major advantage the Orthodox have over the Catholics, for example; a single guy at the top cannot make life miserable for everyone. That said, things really suck for the Greeks right now, and I actually attending a major Greek seminary exploratory program and there is a major disconnect between the clergy at the top and bottom.

Some of the seminaries were saying stuff like, "Just keep your head down, shut up, get your degree, and get the HELL out of here!!" It's that bad. The Greek Church needs major reforms and changes, but due to international politics, ethnic pride, and love of money, everything seems to be coming apart for them. There was a brave Metropolitan who tried to perform these reforms decades ago, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyridon_of_America, but because he tried to lower clergy's salaries while opening up the Church to English speakers he instead made a ton of enemies and was deposed. Rather than accept a lowering of his rank, Spyridon retired in disgust.

So, please pray for the Greeks, but also, if anyone is Greek or knows Greeks, try to talk some sense into them. They need to preach in English while in America, and they need to stop with the Talmudic butt kissing. Things may come to a head in the future with the Church of Greece breaking away from the EP as well and forming a full blown schism (this will be the second time it's happened).

My apologies to anyone I offend with the above; I've done my best to be as accurate and truthful as possible. Don't hesitate to correct or dispute anything I've written.

You are the first source I have seen to give a be straightforward summary of priests' salaries based on jurisdiction. I have wondered that for a long time and have tried looking into it with little result. Though I couldn't find much of anything on the internet, the anecdotal evidence I gathered was all over the place. My Bulgarian Patriarchate parish actually had the resources to pay the priest a decent salary. However, I know at least two OCA priests who are paid poverty wages and told me about how the low pay is an obstacle to providing the Church with the clergy it needs. I also know a ROCOR priest who is similarly paid pitiably, and who told me about how his low pay is typical, unless you're a Greek....

 

[Blade Runner]

I have attended and been member, or at least given intermittently, to several different Orthodox jurisdictions in my lifetime. I know a lot about the GOA for various reasons which I will not mention here. What Samseau says is largely accurate, and it's almost unfathomable to me (but we here at CIK are different types of people) that a person can exist such as Elpidophoros, given that title. There are explanations that I think you are all are aware of, and they're fairly obvious given the EP and the relationship historically with the US government.

What's sadder for the GOA is that their people and properties are dying. I would guess that God, and this is my speculation from warnings from other priests, is readying the Church for those who want to follow Him in spirit and truth. For most people of Greek ancestry, who have done phenomenally in a material sense in the USA, they have been rather indifferent about the treasure they were given, and did little to teach their children about the faith, to boot. There are gems in the GOA that I love dearly, but I have to speak the truth about the situation. Few will speak up about how pitiful their "tribe" is given their own pride, I think. The ones that do will usually move on to another (English speaking) jurisdiction/archdiocese.

Slavic people in general are cheap and don't take care of things as they should, in my experience, which is something that the Greeks and Arabs are proud to do, but can get a bit much on the appearances side. Having said that, there are great parishes in the OCA and the Serbian archdiocese. All in all, I think the Serbs are the most dependable, but they are also very ethnic.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

This type of stuff is driving me away from my Greek church I'm in, sadly. I'm finding myself getting angry at Liturgy because of too much Greek language.

I don't want to stare at a book for the whole Liturgy. I have been to another Greek Church that doesn't do this. It was probably 90% English. It was amazing. I felt the presence of God there more than any other Church I've attended. It was really something. It was so refreshing to finally hear the chants done in English, and there was absolutely nothing lost.

I understand keeping some things in Greek, sure. But it should be majority English. The Greek club stuff is so annoying. The main question I got asked coming into the Church was whether or not I was Greek. And the Greek festivals need to have more to do with Christ and the Church instead of Greece.

Everyone knows that these Churches started as Greek communities. We get that. But they aren't anymore. There's a lot of converts now. So what's more important? Leading people to Christ or Greek pride? It seems like an easy question that leads to a lot of unnecessary runaround or even backbiting. What does God want us to do?

To be fair, my Priest is pushing back, but there's only so much he can do. If the new converts get turned off, don't come much anymore, or just leave entirely, how can they get new members in the Choir to chant in English? Where will the English congregation be? Well the answer is simple: If you build it, they will come.

The Priest knows this. He's expressed these concerns, but he's up against the old granny grandad guard that have been at the Church building it for many years before him, and of course they have spent a lot of money and time on it. They are stuck in their ways.

Whenever I've expressed my concerns some of the pushback I get is that no one else will step up to do it. The hint is, if you don't like the way things are, then why don't you join the Choir? Why don't you volunteer more? This is all fine but at the end of the day it's energy wasted if it's not a Church-wide 180 on this stuff. Some Churches are doing a much better job of this, so I don't want to poo poo all the Greek Churches. It just sucks that mine is one that isn't. And I've seen many come and go.

It makes sense to me that if all the Parish members were Greek and didn't speak English it would be wrong to do it in English. But if everyone in the Parish speaks English, including 100% of all the new, young converts, why Greek? For the three poor old folks who never acculturated after living in the US for over 50+ years of their life? Is this the standard to adhere to?

Besides the language and Greek club thing, at least at my Church, it's very heavily-ran by short-haired women. God bless them for their effort, but I do sense a spirit of feminism in the Church. And they're so proud of the Greek stuff. Newsflash: You're American! The reality is, many of the people in my Greek Parish would not fit in in Greek society. I'm tired of the larping.

The big donor thing is apparent also. These big donors allow for things that should not be allowed at all. Example: A married homosexual at the altar. It's ok if they're a big donor, right? The ladies insist!

And all this playing out at the same time Greece is celebrating gay marriage legalization. All this attacking of Catholicism to abandon it for Orthodoxy, and here I am.

I heard that the Greeks are considering having Easter on the western calendar eventually? Ecumenism. Isn't this what we bash the Catholics for?

I considered joining the Russians in Thailand only to find out the services are 100% done in Russian. So I'd be stuck with my nose in a book to understand what's going on again. It's easy, just become fluent in Russian! Lol. Is that what I need to do to worship God? Seems realistic. Not even one special day/time set aside to do the Liturgy in Thai? I guess they aren't the 'chosen' ones. Long live mother Russia!

I've noticed certain Catholic Churches have mass in English and Spanish at different times. We can't even have a Liturgy in English, much less Spanish! It's no wonder you'll never find any Hispanics coming to the Greek Orthodox Church in the US.

What I don't get is, in some countries, it's done completely in the native tongue. Like a Russian Church in Buenos Aires. It's all in Spanish. Perhaps this isn't a problem with the Greek Church as a whole, or even the Russians, or whoever, but just certain types of Churches we need to flee from. There are sick Churches.

It seems that it doesn't matter what Church we choose. They are all going to be affected by the world. The Monestaries are a more sure bet.

But there are still certainly better Churches than others. I just wish I didn't have to drive so far. I'm considering going to Liturgy in person only once a month so I can drive to the Church I really likes that's in English.

 

[analyst_green]

I attend a Greek church in South Africa and it doesnt seem to be like this, my parish priest isnt even a greek although he has learnt Greek and is fluent in it, one of the deacons is also not Greek and there are a few new people attending and being baptised who are not Greek, myself included, the liturgy is mixed with Greek and English, the sermons are all english but Iv noticed lately that more and more the liturgy is becoming more and more english, my priest is a monk and was baptised on mt Athos and he has also been to Russia and he like the Russians a lot too he even did a mid week service some prayer of saint Andrews and he did it in a Russian tone not Greek, I know some of the first Greeks who went to America were actually slaves

By "Greek" do you mean EP or is it under the Patriarchate of Alexandria?

 

[Samseau]

What Samseau says is largely accurate, and it's almost unfathomable to me (but we here at CIK are different types of people) that a person can exist such as Elpidophoros, given that title.

If you notice, I didn't bash Elpidophoros at all. I also didn't talk about his gay couple's baptism, which I think is largely sensationalism and not a big issue compared to the money issues. This is because I am not sure if Elpidophoros is even to blame. Between the corrupt GOA and EP, what can one Metropolitan do? Look at what happened to Spyridon. I think Elpidophoros is actually a good guy and probably grew up a good Christian. He loves his Church so much he is basically doing the song and jig to make (((big donors))) happy, even if he has to sell his soul.

Any Metropolitan who didn't do with Elpidophoros does would just be forced out by the spoiled priests and bishops of the GOA. And on top of that, the EP is barely able to survive; without money from the GOA they will be entirely powerless against the Turkish government.

Elpidophoros may also have ulterior motives; he's going to play the game until he can become EP himself, and then he may have his own plans.

I don't see Elpidophoros like the Pope, who obviously has an agenda. I see him more as well-meaning Greek who is trying to square the circle for the sake of his beloved Church. In a way, he is a victim, yet on the other hand, what good is it to gain the world and lose one's soul? Very sad situation, pray for the Greek Church.

 

[Samseau]

And that's just starting salary for Greeks. Bonuses go up depending on how many parishioners one can attract, or other bonuses. I've even heard of some senior Greek Priests pulling in 200K, which seems ridiculous to me and I'm not even sure I believe in such rumors. On top of this are generous retirement packages, health care incentives, etc.

I spoke with a Greek friend of mine recently, and he confirmed this. There are priests who make 200k, it is absurd. The saying among Greeks is,

"If you want to work one day a week and make 200k, become a Priest."

It's very sad.

 

[Blade Runner]

even if he has to sell his soul.

This proves your post to be missing the point entirely. This is the Metropolitan. If we can't hold certain people to a standard, and make excuses for them for doing things unbecoming of a Christian, we are lost.

 

[Samseau]

This proves your post to be missing the point entirely. This is the Metropolitan. If we can't hold certain people to a standard, and make excuses for them for doing things unbecoming of a Christian, we are lost.

Didn't make any excuses at all. But I'm not judging him either. He may be weak willed, but he is most likely doing what he can to protect his tribe and Church. I totally disagree with it, but I can understand that someone would do it. I think many of us have made compromises like this in various parts of our lives, so it feels like hypocrisy to me to judge him for it. It's an easy human error to relate to, but it is still an error.

Ultimately, the only way out for the Greeks, as far as I can tell, is for them to give up the EP. The Greeks cling to the past to the point of idolatry, and it's rotting them out from the inside.

The Antiochians gave up Antioch when the situation became untenable. It's just land.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Didn't make any excuses at all. But I'm not judging him either. He may be weak willed, but he is most likely doing what he can to protect his tribe and Church. I totally disagree with it, but I can understand that someone would do it. I think many of us have made compromises like this in various parts of our lives. It's an easy human error to relate to, but it is still an error.

Ultimately, the only way out for the Greeks, as far as I can tell, is for them to give up the EP. The Greeks cling to the past to the point of idolatry, and it's rotting them out from the inside.

Even the Antiochians gave up Antioch when the situation became untenable. It's just land.

There's an Antiochian Parish in my old region doing 17 Chrismstions/Baptisms in one weekend soon. The Antiochians are really doing good work it seems. Just the impression I get based on looking at what's happening on the ground at different Churches my friends attend around the states. Seems like they are really on fire.

 

[Lawrence87]

I think it is important for anyone who is inquiring to understand that political and hierarchical issues do not revoke the grace that is present in the Greek church. Not that anyone has said such in this topic, but I think the vehement rhetoric you sometimes find online can create that impression. Mount Athos is the holiest place on Earth and they all commemorate Patriarch Bartholemew (well all besides one rogue monastery at least). The Greek Orthodox church is canonical and their sacraments have grace.

If you are inquiring into Orthodoxy and you read this, finding yourself with only a Greek parish nearby to attend, don't be put off from going.

Edited just to add, the reason I make mention of this is because I have encountered people online who absorb a lot of the negative rhetoric online and it has made them ripe for being welcomed with open arms by schismatics. I think we do have to be careful. Whilst we might understand the nuance ourselves, not everyone who reads stuff online does. So I wanted to add this for anyone who does see criticism of the Greek church as saying something about the Grace present therein.

 

[Jericho]

I think it is important for anyone who is inquiring to understand that political and hierarchical issues do not revoke the grace that is present in the Greek church. Not that anyone has said such in this topic, but I think the vehement rhetoric you sometimes find online can create that impression. Mount Athos is the holiest place on Earth and they all commemorate Patriarch Bartholemew (well all besides one rogue monastery at least). The Greek Orthodox church is canonical and their sacraments have grace.

If you are inquiring into Orthodoxy and you read this, finding yourself with only a Greek parish nearby to attend, don't be put off from going.

Edited just to add, the reason I make mention of this is because I have encountered people online who absorb a lot of the negative rhetoric online and it has made them ripe for being welcomed with open arms by schismatics. I think we do have to be careful. Whilst we might understand the nuance ourselves, not everyone who reads stuff online does. So I wanted to add this for anyone who does see criticism of the Greek church as saying something about the Grace present therein.

Thank you for mentioning this. In my response above I had attempted to make a similar statement. However, I struggled to make my point clear and I deleted the comment.

Many of the problems I mentioned affecting the GOARCH parishes hierarchical structure rarely trickle down to affect the parishioners. It’s insider knowledge.

The sacraments are valid. The services are sacred. The priests I’ve gotten to know speak against sin and cultural rot. It is a stark contrast from the circus churches I attended growing up as a Protestant/Evangelical.

I live in an area with many Orthodox parishes representing a variety of jurisdictions. There are 2 OCA parishes that have so many new members that the 2 parishes are forming a third parish nearby. So, in the surrounding area most of the new interest in Orthodoxy is in English speaking services.

I want to echo what Lawrence87 stated above - don’t let the issues we’ve been mentioning deter you from seeking a Greek parish.

 

[GoodShepherd]

By "Greek" do you mean EP or is it under the Patriarchate of Alexandria?

Im not sure, I belong to the Greek orthodox church and its an eastern rite. So also what I found out is during the lockdowns the Russian church here they used multiple plastic spoons for the Holy Communion and the Greek church here did not which is suprising because you would think the Russians are more hardcore but apparently it was the congregation that asked for the plastic spoons

 

[OrthoSerb]

By "Greek" do you mean EP or is it under the Patriarchate of Alexandria?

There are no parishes of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in the US. When people refer to the Greek Church they are referring to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, which is ultimately under the Patriarch of Constantinople.

 

[analyst_green]

There are no parishes of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in the US. When people refer to the Greek Church they are referring to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, which is ultimately under the Patriarch of Constantinople.

I understand that. But GoodShepherd lives in South Africa, which generally falls under Alexandria's canonical jurisdiction.

What I am wondering is if the Greek Orthodox churches in South Africa and Africa in general are exclusively under the Patriarchate of Alexandria, or if some belong to the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well.

 

[OrthoSerb]

I understand that. But GoodShepherd lives in South Africa, which generally falls under Alexandria's canonical jurisdiction.

What I am wondering is if the Greek Orthodox churches in South Africa and Africa in general are exclusively under the Patriarchate of Alexandria, or if some belong to the Ecumenical Patriarchate as well.

I see, I thought he'd moved to the US. In South Africa I believe all Greek parishes would be under the Patriarchate of Alexandria.

 

[Samseau]

I spoke with a Greek friend of mine recently, and he confirmed this. There are priests who make 200k, it is absurd. The saying among Greeks is,

"If you want to work one day a week and make 200k, become a Priest."

It's very sad.

Did some more research into this. The "200k" figure reported is generally for net income, not take home profits for the priests.

So out of 200k, for example, you'll have 100k go to running the parish: Insurance, maintenance, utilities, children's programs, health care, etc. Then another 10-30K for secretaries or deacons to help manage large numbers of parishioners. Then the Priest takes home somewhere between 60-70K, so it's not bad as it appears.