Rules for Protestant Thread

Thomas More

Thomas More

Protestant
Heirloom
Here are the rules for the Protestant Thread. They should be pretty self explanatory, however I'd be interested to hear discussion on them. Of course, forum wide rules apply here as well.

Protestant Forum Rules
1. There are a lot of differences in Protestant doctrine. These can be discussed in an orderly manner in this subforum. However, there is a common core of Biblical Christian beliefs that we will uphold in this subforum.
a. There are some liberal denominations that don’t believe in Christ’s virgin birth, his miracles, or his resurrection. We explicitly believe these things. A statement of acceptable Biblical Christian beliefs is presented below.​
b. Some beliefs that are sometimes included as Protestant will be considered out of bounds here (listed below)​
2. Accept and understand that you get to say your piece, but you can’t spam your opinions.
a. You will not succeed in swinging everybody around to your doctrinal distinctives, so don’t expect that. You can only do your best to present them for others to consider.​
b. Posters may be tempted to think that if everybody didn’t switch over to their position, they need to repost it again, relentlessly. If they are told to stop spamming they might say they were prevented entirely from presenting their position at all. They must have been prevented, because if they had been allowed to keep posting, everyone would have come around to agree with them. This is not true. You must accept that not everybody will agree with you. This is a critical part of maintaining a polite level of conversation.​
c. Think of it like evangelism. Plan the seed by presenting your idea, and if it is not received, shake the dust off your feet, and move on. Leave it in God’s hands. Don’t feel that you can force them around to your position. That won’t work.​

Core Biblically Christian Beliefs. No arguments can be presented against these things
1. The Trinity: God is one substance. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
2. God created the heavens and the earth
3. The Bible is the Word of God.
4. Jesus Christ is both Human and Divine
5. Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and born of the virgin Mary
6. Jesus was crucified, He died, and was buried
7. Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he intercedes on our behalf
8. There is a heaven and a hell, and every person will end up in one or the other after death
9. Jesus will come again and bring heaven on Earth.
10. Every person is a sinner. Jesus offers forgiveness of sins and eternal life. He is the only way to God and salvation
11. To be saved we must trust Jesus as our savior, and obey his commands. By doing so, we are empowered by God to achieve His will. (John 15:5-6)

Beliefs that are out of bounds. No arguments can be presented in favor of these things
1. Female ordination
2. Promotion of homosexuality/transgenderism
3. Prosperity Gospel
4. Elevating Jews/the modern nation-state of Israel above the true spiritual nation of Israel (Christians)
5. BLM promotion/race issues/liberation theology
6. Mormonism/Jehovah's Witnesses
7. Snake handling
 
I'm interested in discussion about the beliefs held in common. I'd like to see these elaborated in greater detail. What beliefs do we all share?

I didn't include the Solas in this list, mostly because I take them for granted and didn't think to state them specifically. Should they be added?

What else?
 
It's probably easier to just specify what denominations are actual cults (Mormons, Jehovah, like you said) than it is to specify what most Protestants believe, especially ones from here.

They're perfect for now.
 
Excellent summary.

Here are some clarifications I would like to suggest:
1) God is one substance in three persons.
2) Jesus Christ established the Church.
3) The Five Solae.
 
I am least pleased with the wording of Core Belief 11. I what I am trying to say is in the passage I quoted, John 15:5-6, or more broadly John 15:1-8. If we abide in Christ, and he in us, we will bear much fruit. We cannot bear any fruit except by Christ abiding in us. If we do not bear fruit, we are like dead branches, to be gathered and cast into the fire.

It's not enough to do good works and bear fruit in our own power. We have to let Christ abide in us and bear the fruit that we can't bear on our own, or it's into the fire for us! I think this is a core teaching that all Protestants accept, and I think all Christians entirely. Yet, it's also very radical. How many live up to this? Personally, I hope and pray God is managing to use me in this way, in spite of myself!

I see this as being related to the need to be born again. There are numerous other passages that address this idea in various ways.

Here's a video I found of John MacArthur on this subject. The video title is slightly wrong. He is using John 15:1-8 for his text.

 
Last edited:
Thomas More said:
11. To be saved we must trust Jesus as our savior, and obey his commands. By doing so, we are empowered by God to achieve His will. (John 15:5-6)
Click to expand...

I have some questions about this forum's position on this.

1. Which commands must we obey to be saved?

2. Is there a point in which one is saved in this life, or is it determined at the end, in the afterlife?

3. What if one trusts in Jesus as savior, but falls short in obeying his commands?
 
ultrainstinct said:
I have some questions about this forum's position on this.

1. Which commands must we obey to be saved?

2. Is there a point in which one is saved in this life, or is it determined at the end, in the afterlife?

3. What if one trusts in Jesus as savior, but falls short in obeying his commands?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I always was of the belief that taking Christ as your Saviour means you are saved, no matter what.

But, you should also endeavour to follow Jesus as best you can (no-one is perfect).
 
ultrainstinct said:
I have some questions about this forum's position on this.

1. Which commands must we obey to be saved?

2. Is there a point in which one is saved in this life, or is it determined at the end, in the afterlife?

3. What if one trusts in Jesus as savior, but falls short in obeying his commands?
Click to expand...
There's a lot here:

Question 1: In John 15, which is quoted in my previous post, it says: "12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." Elsewhere, Jesus is asked what is the greatest commandment. Matthew 22:36-40 "36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”"
Of course, there is also the issue of sin. The above passages both refer to love, but all the sins such as fornication, lying, theft, murder, etc., are violations of the command to love one another. Jesus says in a number of places "Sin no more".

2. This is a disputed topic: can a Christian be saved, then lose their salvation by turning away from Christ? On the one hand, many passages say Christ will hold onto all that he has been given, and will not let a single one slip away. On the other hand, there are numerous stern warnings against continuing in sin. Some would say if a person turns away from Christ, they must have never been saved in the first place. However, there are some people who have lived a Christian life, then fallen into heavy sin, then returned to Christian life fully. I think if you return to Christ, you are still saved. If you do not return to Christ, you are lost, and always were. Better by far to remain faithful to Christ without lapsing. Pray for help to overcome any tendency towards lapsing. As I said, the ins and outs of all this are a topic for some debate.

3. All Christians fall short in obeying His commands. The great promise of salvation is that we are forgiven of our sins. A good verse for this is Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." If we are in Christ, and are obeying his commands, then we are walking according to the spirit, and not by the flesh. Therefore we are under no condemnation. Our sins are forgiven. This chapter goes on to talk about how this is true even though we cannot stop sinning completely.

As to this forum's position on this, most of what I have posted is what I would call Christianity 101. Get saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who died for your sins and was resurrected, and sits on the right hand of God to intercede for us. Abide in Christ and He in you, follow His commands, go and sin no more. He will forgive your sins once and for all, and will empower you to overcome sin in your life, and bear fruit by the power of God using you to accomplish His will. Do this and you will receive eternal life, along with joy unspeakable and peace that passes understanding in this life.

The details of this could be discussed for a lifetime.
 
Last edited:
Cuchulainn said:
Yeah, I always was of the belief that taking Christ as your Saviour means you are saved, no matter what.

But, you should also endeavour to follow Jesus as best you can (no-one is perfect).
Click to expand...
There is some room for discussion on this. I would say that believing in Christ means believing he is God, who must be obeyed. Therefore, believing in him as someone who will forgive your sins no matter what you do seems to go against believing he is God.

We should desire to obey Christ, which is what I see in your second line. However, if someone says they believe in Christ but does not desire to obey him, I would question that strongly. Even the demons believe in Christ, but they do not obey, and are not saved.
 
Thomas More said:
There is some room for discussion on this. I would say that believing in Christ means believing he is God, who must be obeyed. Therefore, believing in him as someone who will forgive your sins no matter what you do seems to go against believing he is God.

We should desire to obey Christ, which is what I see in your second line. However, if someone says they believe in Christ but does not desire to obey him, I would question that strongly. Even the demons believe in Christ, but they do not obey, and are not saved.
Click to expand...
I didn't want to write a long post, but just portray an overview of what I believe.

I remember struggling with the "morality" (for want of a better word) of this when younger.

What if the most evil person comes to Christ on their deathbed, is everything them have done, up to and including, genocide forgiven. God may be able to do that, but as a flawed human, I really can't.

As to your point of straying off the path, as a human I see a difference between straying by telling a lie, or by murdering someone. God does not.

This could be debated forever, but for me, the problem has always been that my capacity for forgiveness falls a lot sort of Christ's infinite capacity for forgiveness.

Anyway, to clear up what I believe, I believe that if you accept Christ as your Saviour, you are saved. If you are not perfect, if you sin, but if you still try to live a life that honours Christ then you are still saved. If you turn from Christ, whether purposefully or not, but return to him again, you are saved. If you forsake Christ but do not return, then you are not saved.
 
ultrainstinct said:
I have some questions about this forum's position on this.

1. Which commands must we obey to be saved?

2. Is there a point in which one is saved in this life, or is it determined at the end, in the afterlife?

3. What if one trusts in Jesus as savior, but falls short in obeying his commands?
Click to expand...

Here's my take:

1. None, other than repenting and believing. We are not saved by our adherence to commands. Following the commands is the proof that you already have faith. We are saved on the condition of faith alone but the giving of that faith by grace alone is unconditional.

2. There is a point in time in which you believe and are saved but that time was predetermined as the Apostle Paul says.

3. Everyone who trusts in Jesus as Savior falls short in obeying His commands everyday. But as Paul says "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus."

A thread to discuss and debate soteriology would be good.
 
Cuchulainn said:
What if the most evil person comes to Christ on their deathbed, is everything them have done, up to and including, genocide forgiven. God may be able to do that, but as a flawed human, I really can't.
Click to expand...
A few thoughts on this:
  • God keeps evil on a leash. Some people will be able to commit great evils, but ultimately God will restrain the evil from doing something that would disrupt His divine plan for the world - i.e., there will never be a situation where the planet gets annihilated by nukes or something. But surely, His protection extends well past that point.
  • God searches a man's heart; He knows if a deathbed confession was genuine or an attempt to game the system. You can't game the system with God. That is the error Jews make, believing that they can - and their entire modern religion revolves around the concept of "gaming" God's system.
  • A shepherd is happy if he can snatch one of his lost sheep from the jaws of a wolf before it is killed and devoured. How much more overjoyed is our God to save a soul mere moments before damnation?
 
Thomas More said:
I'm interested in discussion about the beliefs held in common. I'd like to see these elaborated in greater detail. What beliefs do we all share?

I didn't include the Solas in this list, mostly because I take them for granted and didn't think to state them specifically. Should they be added?

What else?
Click to expand...
Predestination?
 
I am no authority on these matters but it appears to me that the biggest issue within Protestantism is the question of predestination versus freewill. This feeds in to the sovereignty of God versus how much power He devolved to Adam and because of this, God's will doesn't necessarily come to pass.
 
To me, predestination or not doesn't really matter. It's not used to justify sin or has incidents like "oops, God meant me to kill this guy, sorry officer". You're going to live almost the same believing or not believing in it, unless you believe the meme that no free will means you're a robot. There was this one Brazilian podcast where the main podcast host was talking about a Presbyterian couple who fornicated before marriage and said it was an accident. A few comments were clowning on predestination and the word "accident", but it shows that it doesn't really change much in your Christian life. If they did not believe in predestination, they would have used the same word. This may be a stupid example, but it stuck with me.
I don't find it an absurd heresy for someone to deny it, is my main point.

Do note that I'm Presbyterian and don't know big details on other Protestant denominations, so I'm not sure how they treat predestination. In Presbyterianism, the predestination is more in line with the idea of the elect and some of the other teachings of Calvin. As the poster above said, sovereignty of God.
 
Anytime someone says something that God inspired and the Apostles took the time to write "doesn't matter" I can't help but feel a little concerned.

I think an understanding of God's sovereignty over time does have a profound effect in your life, especially the more you live in the truth of it. You understand He has always been there "causing you to will and to work for His good pleasure." If someone does deny the concept of predestination, they are denying the plain testimony of Scripture. It doesn't get any more heretical than that.

I think it is more permissible to debate how predestination works but I would be careful even in that.
 
Thanks for all the replies to my questions earlier. The way #11 was phrased, I might've assumed some other kinds of responses. It's good to see where everyone stands.

On another note, I'm so glad there is a Protestant forum now. It warms my heart to see such people are out there. Of course, you were already on the old forum, but it always felt like to me Protestants had to hold their tongue on many things, and I could never get a clear picture despite the tag.

One core belief I would suggest to add is something I've studied extensively lately - that women should not pray or "prophesy" without their heads covered. Likewise, men should not do the same with their head covered.

This might seem a little out of place (perhaps I should start a separate thread on it regardless), but I believe it isn't. I think it should be included because 1) its biblical 2) the teaching has been completely subverted in the last century, which makes it especially important for us to proclaim it.

Now some of you, may not be familiar with this, as I was not (not clearly anyway). I just assumed that because only a tiny minority of Christian women covered their heads, that it was optional. However, if you look into it, and I suggest you do, you will find it is not true. From the Early Church, through the Reformation and up until the 1900s, the practice was universal across all Protestant denominations, and also the Catholics and Orthodox. It was only as recently as 1960 which the practice and teaching fell out of fashion. Can you believe that it was so recent? Does it surprise you that it coincides with various cultural revolutions taking place at the time? If one is old enough (I am not), one would have noticed this dramatic change. But it's true, look at the Early Church paintings and art, through the middle ages, and photos/video footage of the early 1900s. Even most non-believing women covered their heads in daily life. Of course, for some of them, this was more for tradition and fashion than for fear of God, but I believe it was a consequence of the legacy of Christianity.

The eye-opening history aside, and more importantly, the teaching from the scriptures is also clear. Paul even says regarding the teaching that "if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God." (1 Corinthians 11:2-16)

Now you may wonder, what is the explanation that churches give that it does not have to be followed. After all, even though most modern churches of the day have been subverted, many would not feel comfortable simply ignoring Paul's undeniable command without having some sort of apparent justification. I've looked up every variation of why head coverings are no longer required, and they are all laughably bad (sad), and the multitude of Biblical defenses of the mandate is solid as rock. For those that have discernment, it is clear they have caved in to feminist and gynocentric influences over the last century. I won't go into the details of the exegesis or the flimsy and transparent arguments from its opponents, for they are easy to find, but I'd be happy to share more of my thoughts if asked.

There are many other practices and doctrines relating to men and women that have been subverted, but this one stands out to me the most. From the universality of its practice of over 2000 years (and even before, in the Hebrew tradition and practices) , to the rapid discarding of it. Is it not stunningly symbolic of the times we live in? Is it not literally the one of earliest symbolic dominoes in the chain that fell?
 
ultrainstinct said:
Just noticed I lost the Heritage tag, I wonder what that means 😐
Click to expand...
I think they are not giving it if you were pretty new, or your post count was really low.

The core beliefs are things we believe are essential, so much so that we won't allow posters to come and argue against them. I don't think head coverings fall in that category.

I actually like the idea, but it's rarely practiced, even in some very conservative traditional churches. It's worded like a biblical commandment, but I can see how it is cultural, not an absolute requirement. In Western societies, it was almost universal for all men and women to wear some kind of a hat whenever they were outside until somewhere around 50-70 years ago. Now wearing hats is definitely optional, and fairly rare. Personally, I never wear a hat, except to keep warm in winter. I think a lot of women are like that as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top