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Revelation 21 and the 12 Gemstones
- Thread starter TrainedLogosmotion
- Start date
The NIV translation this was taken from actually has a note saying, "The precise identification of some of these precious stones is uncertain." There also exist many more than 28 gemstones. No idea how many are anisotropic.
Still this is a remarkable coincidence. Of course, even if skeptics accept the probability, some people will sooner believe that aliens gave John a microscope than to believe God planned it out. The famous atheist Dawkins said that if God wrote "God exists" in the stars, Dawkins would sooner believe he was going mad than to believe in God.
Still this is a remarkable coincidence. Of course, even if skeptics accept the probability, some people will sooner believe that aliens gave John a microscope than to believe God planned it out. The famous atheist Dawkins said that if God wrote "God exists" in the stars, Dawkins would sooner believe he was going mad than to believe in God.
Very honest and very insightful of him. He's absolutely right. The twist is that not believing in God is already madness.
Sorry, I confused Dawkins with the other stubborn atheist in this clip. But Dawkins said something very similar.
Yeah, even the Miraculous won't convince many prideful athiest types, but the paradox is, it's almost always the humble who are Graced with the Miraculous.
My take on the 12 precious stones: I can't speak to any scientific properties they may have but they seem to be a symbol of God's Elect or His Chosen People.
You have this reference in Revelation 21, that the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem's walls were adorned with these 12 gemstones.
1 Kings 18: when Elijah challenges the priests of Baal, he makes his altar out of 12 stones, one for each tribe of Israel.
The Levitical high priest wore a breastplate of 12 gemstones. Significant, as his job was to act as the mediator between God and His people Israel, foreshadowing the role that Christ fulfills in perpetuity.
Peter says that you (the believer) as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, for a holy priesthood, offering spiritual and acceptable sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ.
It seems that just as God progressively revealed Himself, leading up to the Incarnation, so too has the Church been progressively revealed, from the 12 tribes of Israel to the 12 Apostles, all awaiting to be fully revealed in the eschaton.
You have this reference in Revelation 21, that the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem's walls were adorned with these 12 gemstones.
1 Kings 18: when Elijah challenges the priests of Baal, he makes his altar out of 12 stones, one for each tribe of Israel.
The Levitical high priest wore a breastplate of 12 gemstones. Significant, as his job was to act as the mediator between God and His people Israel, foreshadowing the role that Christ fulfills in perpetuity.
Peter says that you (the believer) as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, for a holy priesthood, offering spiritual and acceptable sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ.
It seems that just as God progressively revealed Himself, leading up to the Incarnation, so too has the Church been progressively revealed, from the 12 tribes of Israel to the 12 Apostles, all awaiting to be fully revealed in the eschaton.
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The levitical breastplate is in Exodus 28 & 39. Very interesting the different things that are concealed in the OT but revealed in the NT.
This just shows belief or non-belief in God even for the "scientific" "rationalist" types isn't just based on following the evidence where it leads as they claim but is also a matter of the emotions, will, and whatever other a-rational faculty there is. Back in the very early days of the Roosh forums when there before Gamergate and Roosh becoming a cultural warrior there was a very prominent poster who was a half-Jew super liberal guy living in NYC. There would be occasional religious debates on the forum and he would jump on a few of them since he was a fervent atheist as opposed to a passive one like Roosh was. I remember him stating that even if there it could proven without a doubt that God existed he would still hate him and would refuse to give Him any respect. Another example I can give of this behavior is the YouTuber Hunter Avallone who is a former Christian turned Reddit-style atheist and I recall stating once on a stream that even if God could be shown to exist he would still do all he could to oppose him. I don't think this sort of attitude is that uncommon.
It's quite funny to see how God despite being non-existent according to these people is still able to live rent-free in these people's heads. If I can indulge in a bit of amateur psychoanalysis, I think these people deep down have a fear of having to face a final judgement in the end and this is a big part of why they have to very loudly proclaim that God doesn't exist and even construct their identity and personality around it while at the same time they seem to treat God as someone they have to actively oppose and fight against as if He was something real even though in their worldview He isn't supposed to exist. I think a lot of the Nordic paganism LARP is quite silly but I don't have a psychological need to actively speak out against it as I don't have any fear of Odin smiting me or of Ragnarok coming. These anti-Christian people on the other hand are another story.
100%. I find Romans 1 to explain this more than sufficiently. All humans are created in the image of God, therefore, they recognize that they must worship Him as that is what they were created to do. But the non-believer is actively suppressing that truth in unrighteousness. They rebel against the knowledge of God so they are free to pursue their own idols.
As a former atheist of that ilk, for me it wasn't so much fear of the judgment as not wanting to accept the magnitude of responsibilities and obedience that God requires. It's much easier to be lazy and "have a good time" if your worldview only requires you to not be a direct cause of others' suffering in order to be "good enough" morally.
In the end I've come to the conclusion that although we can't prove God and they can't disprove Him, what we choose to believe reveals a lot about ourselves.