Missing Bible verses

Kido Butai

Protestant
Hello. As a mainline protestant (Lutheran), I have compared the ESV with the KJV. I noticed several verses not found in the ESV, in particular Acts 8:37. There are others. I'm curious to start a discussion, regardless of Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, or Orthodox. What sayest thou?
 
Hello. As a mainline protestant (Lutheran), I have compared the ESV with the KJV. I noticed several verses not found in the ESV, in particular Acts 8:37. There are others. I'm curious to start a discussion, regardless of Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, or Orthodox. What sayest thou?
These translations have underlying manuscripts that they are translating from. The KJV is an English translation of the Textus Receptus, which is a Greek translation of the Vulgate, which is a Latin translation of the older Greek manuscripts. As such, the text includes passages and renderings that have been added in over time.

The ESV is an English translation of a Greek critical text, which is a collation of the oldest and most consistent Greek manuscripts. It is essentially the next best thing to the original text, or the best approximation of what the Apostles wrote. It will still include verses such as Acts 8:37, but it will place them in [brackets] to let you know that the oldest manuscripts do not include the verse.

 
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Hello. As a mainline protestant (Lutheran), I have compared the ESV with the KJV. I noticed several verses not found in the ESV, in particular Acts 8:37. There are others. I'm curious to start a discussion, regardless of Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, or Orthodox. What sayest thou?
There are actually entire books missing from the protestant bible not just a few verses, in the 1500's queen Elizabeth removed x10 books from the Bible that were originally part of the canon of scripture, Here are the names of those books:

Tobit
judith
wisdom of sirach
wisdom of solomon
first ezra
baruch
epistle of jeremiah
the 3 books of maccabees

As a former protestant I have read the entire Bible from cover to cover at least 5 times and in different translations and I wasnt aware about these other books, I havent read these book yet but I plan on doing it.

Some of the apocrypha was also read in private by Christians but it wasnt canonized scripture but it was still considered worth reading, I have read a few of these books and I enjoyed some of them.
 
There are actually entire books missing from the protestant bible not just a few verses, in the 1500's queen Elizabeth removed x10 books from the Bible that were originally part of the canon of scripture, Here are the names of those books:

Tobit
judith
wisdom of sirach
wisdom of solomon
first ezra
baruch
epistle of jeremiah
the 3 books of maccabees

As a former protestant I have read the entire Bible from cover to cover at least 5 times and in different translations and I wasnt aware about these other books, I havent read these book yet but I plan on doing it.

Some of the apocrypha was also read in private by Christians but it wasnt canonized scripture but it was still considered worth reading, I have read a few of these books and I enjoyed some of them.

I recently read the apocrypha books as I also grew up protestant and didn't know about them or read them. I found them to be interesting, but not a big deal, if I can say as much. They seemed to help aid me in understanding the Hebrews a little better, particularly their militancy, such as in the Maccabees. The wisdom books were not as well written or interesting as Proverbs or Ecclesiastes, but they are still pertinent.

As for missing verses, I remember learning about Matthew 17:21 being added, like how GodFatherPartTwo pointed out, there being discrepancies between old and medieval translated books, with the oldest versions of Matthew not containing the part about 'these kind can only come out through prayer and fasting.' I personally find this particular omission fascinating after hearing a discussion that demons could be parasites or inhabit/possess parasites and use them to inflict a person. Makes sense to me and why fasting would be an aspect of the removal of said demons.
 
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I notice a big difference between the inspired Word of God and the Apocrypha. It's like going from a George Lucas helmed Star Wars movie to one that Disney made. Some of the Apocrypha I found to be entertaining in some areas, Bel and the Dragon gave me a good laugh, but after it was over it felt more like a comic book.

Much can be said about why or why not they should be considered Canonical. Historically, the best evidence is against that they were considered the Word of God by the 1st century Jews, as they were not laid up in the Temple. Some of them weren't even written in Hebrew or by Prophets. Some of them even say they were written when Divine Inspiration had ceased and there were no Prophets, such as Maccabees. They're never explicity cited in the New Testament at all, the way the Canonical Old Testament is.

Not only is the external evidence against them strong, so is their own internal evidence.
 
I recently read the apocrypha books as I also grew up protestant and didn't know about them or read them. I found them to be interesting, but not a big deal, if I can say as much. They seemed to help aid me in understanding the Hebrews a little better, particularly their militancy, such as in the Maccabees. The wisdom books were not as well written or interesting as Proverbs or Ecclesiastes, but they are still pertinent.

As for missing verses, I remember learning about Matthew 17:21 being added, like how GodFatherPartTwo pointed out, there being discrepancies between old and medieval translated books, with the oldest versions of Matthew not containing the part about 'these kind can only come out through prayer and fasting.' I personally find this particular omission fascinating after hearing a discussion that demons could be parasites or inhabit/possess parasites and use them to inflict a person. Makes sense to me and why fasting would be an aspect of the removal of said demons.
I read some of the apocrypha as a protestant many years ago, I especially enjoyed the book of Enoch but I can understand why it was not canonised like Saint Augustine says, we dont know the sources of these books, so the church was wise not to canonise them, book 3 of the book of Enoch for example can seem a bit dodggy in the way it was written.

Regarding the missing verses, it just depends on what type of Christianity the person had who translated the gospels, of they didnt believe in something they would change it to suit their doctrine, even the jews who translatted the Greek old testament back into hebrew they left out the prophesies concerning Christ. You would think a translator would like to keep the scriptures as pure as possible free from intepritation but it doesnt seem to happen. Thats why I value the intepritations of the scriptures BY THE CHURCH very much over my individual intepritation.
 
I notice a big difference between the inspired Word of God and the Apocrypha. It's like going from a George Lucas helmed Star Wars movie to one that Disney made. Some of the Apocrypha I found to be entertaining in some areas, Bel and the Dragon gave me a good laugh, but after it was over it felt more like a comic book.

Much can be said about why or why not they should be considered Canonical. Historically, the best evidence is against that they were considered the Word of God by the 1st century Jews, as they were not laid up in the Temple. Some of them weren't even written in Hebrew or by Prophets. Some of them even say they were written when Divine Inspiration had ceased and there were no Prophets, such as Maccabees. They're never explicity cited in the New Testament at all, the way the Canonical Old Testament is.

Not only is the external evidence against them strong, so is their own internal evidence.
As a protestant before I was even married I remember the Bible mentioning some books that were not in my Bible, for example, when I read 2 Samuel I think its in chapter 1 or 2 it mentions the book of Jasher that its recorded some events, it makes reference to the book, I also remember the book of Jude in the new testament that it mentions the prophesies of Enoch so clearlt Christians read something about his prophesies yet we dont have Enoch in our Bible, I know the Ethiopian Bible has it though.

We still have prophesies though there are prophesies from the saints about future events that are to come, thats not new revelation though the teachings of Christianity dont change, in the book of Daniel it even says that only in the very end will his prophesies be unsealed and only then will we be able to see what they ment, something along those lines.
 
As a protestant before I was even married I remember the Bible mentioning some books that were not in my Bible, for example, when I read 2 Samuel I think its in chapter 1 or 2 it mentions the book of Jasher that its recorded some events, it makes reference to the book, I also remember the book of Jude in the new testament that it mentions the prophesies of Enoch so clearlt Christians read something about his prophesies yet we dont have Enoch in our Bible, I know the Ethiopian Bible has it though.
Same thing in Numbers, which makes reference to the Book of the Wars of the Lord, which is completely lost.

In Acts, Paul quotes from a pagan poem.

Colossians mentions an epistle coming from the Laodicean church, which some interpret as a lost letter from Paul (I do not).

Jude quotes from Enoch, which is not considered canonical by most denominations.

It seems that in God's providence, we simply were not meant to have certain books, and even for ones we do have, to not place more weight on them than we ought.
 
I notice a big difference between the inspired Word of God and the Apocrypha. It's like going from a George Lucas helmed Star Wars movie to one that Disney made. Some of the Apocrypha I found to be entertaining in some areas, Bel and the Dragon gave me a good laugh, but after it was over it felt more like a comic book.
This has been exactly my take on the Apocrypha for years, as a Protestant. But some Orthodox that I've listened to seem to think the removal of the books from the canon was the result of (((dubious motivations))). In particular that the history in Maccabees is essential. Have yet to follow up on that by re-reading those books but this discussion is a good reminder to do so.
 
This has been exactly my take on the Apocrypha for years, as a Protestant. But some Orthodox that I've listened to seem to think the removal of the books from the canon was the result of (((dubious motivations))). In particular that the history in Maccabees is essential. Have yet to follow up on that by re-reading those books but this discussion is a good reminder to do so.
There's a lot of bad history and conspiratorial thinking flung against the Protestant Canon, but there's a reason the early church labeled these books as deuterocanonical (secondary canon). There were Catholic cardinals in Luther's day who agreed with him on the Apocrypha. Not to mention that his German translation of the Bible still included all the apocryphal books, which doesn't stop people from lying by saying that he took them out of the Bible arbitrarily. Think about that, Luther painstakingly translated them into German, which is far more than his detractors ever did for the books they are defending. The term 'Apocrypha' itself was first used by St. Athanasius about many of these same books.

I think the Apocryphal books are worth reading, someone may even be edified by them. But I wouldn't build or defend any serious doctrine on them, or any of the meaningful textual variants that have popped up in the history of the Bible's transmission.
 
Same thing in Numbers, which makes reference to the Book of the Wars of the Lord, which is completely lost.

In Acts, Paul quotes from a pagan poem.

Colossians mentions an epistle coming from the Laodicean church, which some interpret as a lost letter from Paul (I do not).

Jude quotes from Enoch, which is not considered canonical by most denominations.

It seems that in God's providence, we simply were not meant to have certain books, and even for ones we do have, to not place more weight on them than we ought.
Yes, we can still read them but they not part of scripture but they were still read, there are many Christians even today that still write books and we read them but they not canonized
 
There are some academic scholars who posit that changes in the manuscripts somehow pose a fatal blow to Christianity or the inerrancy of the Bible. There are two big examples in the Gospels of things that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts; the ending of the Gospel of St. Mark, and the 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' passage in St. John's Gospel.

These don't really pose challenges, these "insertions" are not invalidated by their exclusion from the earliest manuscripts. It could well be the the stoning of the adulterous woman was authentic to St. John but from a different written account of his, or preserved in oral traditions as authentically coming from him. It could also be that the earliest copies we have actually were mistaken copies that skipped over the passage and got propagated and when the mistake was noticed it was reinserted. There are any number of reasons that could account for these things that do not invalidate them. At the very least, the passage from St. John's Gospel is a powerful Christian message, so it doesn't undermine anything, even if it was merely a later insertion.

People like Bart Ehrman posit these kinds of things as fatal to Christianity, but I don't really see how.
 
These don't really pose challenges, these "insertions" are not invalidated by their exclusion from the earliest manuscripts. It could well be the the stoning of the adulterous woman was authentic to St. John but from a different written account of his, or preserved in oral traditions as authentically coming from him.
The problem with the adulterous woman, the pericope adulterae, is that the story shifts around in the manuscript tradition. Some manuscripts even place it in the Gospel of Luke. The rest of John's Gospel is rock solid, everything stays in place, except for this. Not to mention that the text does not show up in the manuscript tradition until the 5th century. It is a wonderful story, and I believe it can be read in a way to not conflict with the rest of the Gospel, but I wouldn't preach from it.

The longer ending of Mark is problematic because there are multiple endings. It has earlier attestation than the pericope adulterae but the ending is still shifty. Again, I wouldn't preach from it.

These two are the biggest meaningful textual variants, everything else comes down to grammatical errors in the copying process, or a meaningful variant in a line here or there.
 
The problem with the adulterous woman, the pericope adulterae, is that the story shifts around in the manuscript tradition. Some manuscripts even place it in the Gospel of Luke. The rest of John's Gospel is rock solid, everything stays in place, except for this. Not to mention that the text does not show up in the manuscript tradition until the 5th century. It is a wonderful story, and I believe it can be read in a way to not conflict with the rest of the Gospel, but I wouldn't preach from it.

The longer ending of Mark is problematic because there are multiple endings. It has earlier attestation than the pericope adulterae but the ending is still shifty. Again, I wouldn't preach from it.

These two are the biggest meaningful textual variants, everything else comes down to grammatical errors in the copying process, or a meaningful variant in a line here or there.
It sounds like you are more well-versed in this stuff than I am.

At the end of the day its not like either the longer ending of St Mark's Gospel, or the passage from St. John contain anything massively problematic for Christians. Even if one were to take them as later insertions that were not authentic to the Evangelists themselves, they don't really undermine anything in a major way. And like you say these appear to be the most substantial instances.
 
It sounds like you are more well-versed in this stuff than I am.

At the end of the day its not like either the longer ending of St Mark's Gospel, or the passage from St. John contain anything massively problematic for Christians. Even if one were to take them as later insertions that were not authentic to the Evangelists themselves, they don't really undermine anything in a major way. And like you say these appear to be the most substantial instances.
Yeah, I don't believe they should overthrow your faith in anyway, or that they somehow prove Christianity is false or anything like that. Recognize them for what they are because the liberals who do know them will use them to attack the veracity of the rest of the text. The Word of God is not so flimsy that it is undone by textual variants.
 
I don't think those two passages contradict the rest of the Gospel message and if anything are harmonious with it so I don't think it poses a threat to Christian theology or belief. However, if you have a fundamentalist sort of definition of inerrancy would it be a threat to that sort of definition of inerrancy? I suppose one way to get around it would just to be say the words in the Bible were indeed preserved by God but it's human error that allowed those two passages. A problem I see is that at this point the story of the adultness is one of the most well known stories in the Gospels and the vast majority of Christians of all denominations accept that it is part of the canon and often use it as guidance in their own spiritual lives so if you believe in the strictest forms of inerrancy then the question arises why God would allow this story become so enshrined within Christian tradition instead of "nipping it in the bud" from the start and not preserve it in the same way He has chosen to preserve the other parts of the canon.
 
However, if you have a fundamentalist sort of definition of inerrancy would it be a threat to that sort of definition of inerrancy?
Yes, it would. I believe the Bible is 100% the Word of God and that we can trust it with our very souls. That is not the same thing as saying that every letter and grammatical punctuation in the King James Version is perfectly preserved. The King James Only movement largely came as a reaction against this. To put it simply, we know more and have more access to ancient manuscripts than the King James translators did in their day.

A problem I see is that at this point the story of the adultness is one of the most well known stories in the Gospels and the vast majority of Christians of all denominations accept that it is part of the canon and often use it as guidance in their own spiritual lives so if you believe in the strictest forms of inerrancy then the question arises why God would allow this story become so enshrined within Christian tradition instead of "nipping it in the bud" from the start and not preserve it in the same way He has chosen to preserve the other parts of the canon.
I see a couple of questions in this. One is that it assumes the story is authentic. Can you really say that the story is "enshrined" in the Gospels if it was not contained in the original Gospels? If the story was indeed added in the 5th century, then for the majority of Christians prior to the 5th century, the story was not "enshrined" in the Gospels at all. It's hard to appreciate that from where we're standing, it's much easier to assume anachronism, that it was always the same before our time, not recognizing the development of things as they played out along the way. To the second point, what is stopping someone from seeing this as God's way of "removing" something from the Gospels that should not have been added on in the first place?

I'm not giving an answer one way or the other, but these are questions to consider.

To give a better grasp of what's at stake, I recommend this debate:


I also recommend this one, although I find the first one to be more clarifying:
 
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One thing I would like to mention is that Christianity isnt based on a book, the Church existed decades before the new testament was written and centuries before anyone owned a personal Bible, the Bible is very important and I still view it as the most important book in the world but to the critics trying to cast doubt on Christianity because of a couple of "out of place verses" they need to understand this isnt a problem to Christianity at all.
 
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