Is Modern Music Destroying our Civilization?

Genealogist

Genealogist

Catholic
I recently found this OUTSTANDING podcast think it is too worthy not to share here for the benefit of the members of this forum. Extremely interesting and informative -- highly recommend! One if the central points it raised is this truth: music will either inspire/enable the practice of virtue, or it will inspire/enable the practice of vice; it either inclines/orients you towards the practice of virtue, or inclines/orients you towards the practice of vice. It's an either/or and there is no neutral, no middle ground.

Part 1-

Part 2-

Eager to hear your all's thoughts and discuss!
 
All we have to do is listen to any random rap song to know this is true. Kill. Steal. Do drugs. Have sex.

One thing I like to do to people is read them the lyrics of songs. I don't tell them what the song name or band is. I just read it monotone.

They will be become disgusted, depressed, or feel dumber after I've read it to them. It's a fun game to play with people to help them realize the subliminal messages of songs that infect them.

Most of it is just really awful poetry to a 'cool' beat. It's actually really hilarious to me.

Even the bass in rap music can effect us in a spiritually negative way. It's invasive, aggressive, and disturbing. It makes you feel bad. Triggers a sense of pride. It's demonic.
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
All we have to do is listen to any random rap song to know this is true. Kill. Steal. Do drugs. Have sex.

One thing I like to do to people is read them the lyrics of songs. I don't tell them what the song name or band is. I just read it monotone.

They will be become disgusted, depressed, or feel dumber after I've read it to them. It's a fun game to play with people to help them realize the subliminal messages of songs that infect them.

Most of it is just really awful poetry to a 'cool' beat. It's actually really hilarious to me.

Even the bass in rap music can effect us in a spiritually negative way. It's invasive, aggressive, and disturbing. It makes you feel bad. Triggers a sense of pride. It's demonic.
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What's your take on Christian rap, demonic or wholesome?

 
Andrew Anglin did a fascinating Ebonics to Standard English translation of a track by someone who goes by 42 Dugg who, I guess, is a famous rapper. Link below. I'm not a hip hop guy at all, but most hip hop tracks basically seem like this to me. Just variations on "I am a murderer who sells lots of drugs and has sex with and/or traffics a lot of women, and I own many luxury goods." I can't think of an equivalent in European culture. Maybe something lost from pre-Christian times, but there's no evidence of that as far as I know.

 
analyst_green said:
What's your take on Christian rap, demonic or wholesome?

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Just to show that I'm not specifically attacking rap. Pick your genre. Almost all of them will be infected to a degree by their own particular array of negative energies.

I look at it the same way as Christian metal (which I like sometimes). Christian metal has a little Christian salt, which is better than secular, but it's still spiritually harmful to me. It triggers anger, aggression, dark thoughts, etc.

The lyrics of the rap song you posted are certainly much better, but it's the same types of beats as the satanic songs, same speaking tone, same prideful, cringe dancing. Lots in common still.
 
TrainedLogosmotion said:
Just to show that I'm not specifically attacking rap. Pick your genre. Almost all of them will be infected to a degree by their own particular array of negative energies.

I look at it the same way as Christian metal (which I like sometimes). Christian metal has a little Christian salt, which is better than secular, but it's still spiritually harmful to me. It triggers anger, aggression, dark thoughts, etc.

The lyrics of the rap song you posted are certainly much better, but it's the same types of beats as the satanic songs, same speaking tone, same prideful, cringe dancing. Lots in common still.
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You're probably right that all modern music has its problems. Nonetheless, people won't turn into saints overnight. This kind of music could be useful as a stepping stone in getting people to move away from the worst of modern culture. If you can get the blacks in the hood away from garbage like that degenerate 42 Dugg song, nearly anything will be a step up for them.

I thought about eliminating all modern music from my life but it's just too difficult right now. There are bigger sins to focus on, and if I can put on some Christian metal song that keeps me from acting out in wrath or lust then it's a worthwhile trade-off. It's a lesser of two evils deal. Now the ideal thing to do would be to turn to God in prayer and ask Him for help in getting through it. That should be what we're working towards but it can be really hard to do in the moment.
 
analyst_green said:
You're probably right that all modern music has its problems. Nonetheless, people won't turn into saints overnight. This kind of music could be useful as a stepping stone in getting people to move away from the worst of modern culture. If you can get the blacks in the hood away from garbage like that degenerate 42 Dugg song, nearly anything will be a step up for them.

I thought about eliminating all modern music from my life but it's just too difficult right now. There are bigger sins to focus on, and if I can put on some Christian metal song that keeps me from acting out in wrath or lust then it's a worthwhile trade-off. It's a lesser of two evils deal. Now the ideal thing to do would be to turn to God in prayer and ask Him for help in getting through it. That should be what we're working towards but it can be really hard to do in the moment.
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Yeah, it's certainly better.

I'm not saying we should eliminate ALL music. I don't want to appear as if I'm being overly blackpill.

For example, and this is just me personally, but I really like certain types of movie soundtrack classical or Hawaiin folk because they uplift my spirit.

I just think we can make better choices. If you're black, and grew up in the ghetto listening to gangster rap, then maybe this is a good segway.

But the white guy jig dancing with the fishing shirt in the video...what's his excuse?
 
I'd put music into four categories:

Music of temporal pain - wrath, sloth, envy, e.g. most metal and blues
Music of temporal pleasure - greed, gluttony, pride; to that I would also add joy, to the traditional list of sins, which I will come to later
Music of temporal innocence / wholesome music - you'll find very little music of this type now, mainly limited to folk-type music - this would be music where there is non-indulgent graceful enjoyment of god's gifts - beauty, family, simple life. Examples:



How exactly those may manifest differs, e.g. the music of temporal pleasure can be taking in pleasure in being the boss pimp, living a hedonist party lifestyle, general arrogance (Bono). It is some sort of sensory or social web that people get caught in. And in the modern age, the outlook of the essentially atheist population doesn't have anything more to consider than how these things can be increased. How and what they are increased varies.

The music of pain is for people angry at the distribution of temporal pleasure. And the music of pleasure those who are happy and chasing more pleasure. That's the majority of modern music.

All those three types of music draw you to the world. The first two are sinful, while the last is not. So long as there is also time for God.

The final type of music is thus the opposite. That is music that removes you from temporal concerns. This is largely limited to chants and other traditional church music. This music helps numb your senses and concerns of the world and allows you to move closer to God. Example:


Returning to the topic of joy. This is a perversion that has particularly afflicted certain Protestant churches. Joy is essentially a self-indulgent and non-graceful way of enjoying the pleasures God allows us. This is the slippery slope to indulgence of the sins of pleasure. And the indulgences of pleasure leads to resentment. That's where we are now. Not just in terms of music. But in terms of everything.

To answer the thread title's question? Yes. But it's one aspect of the same materialist mindset that pervades today.
 
Cynllo said:
I'd put music into four categories:

Music of temporal pain - wrath, sloth, envy, e.g. most metal and blues
Music of temporal pleasure - greed, gluttony, pride; to that I would also add joy, to the traditional list of sins, which I will come to later
Music of temporal innocence / wholesome music - you'll find very little music of this type now, mainly limited to folk-type music - this would be music where there is non-indulgent graceful enjoyment of god's gifts - beauty, family, simple life. Examples:



How exactly those may manifest differs, e.g. the music of temporal pleasure can be taking in pleasure in being the boss pimp, living a hedonist party lifestyle, general arrogance (Bono). It is some sort of sensory or social web that people get caught in. And in the modern age, the outlook of the essentially atheist population doesn't have anything more to consider than how these things can be increased. How and what they are increased varies.

The music of pain is for people angry at the distribution of temporal pleasure. And the music of pleasure those who are happy and chasing more pleasure. That's the majority of modern music.

All those three types of music draw you to the world. The first two are sinful, while the last is not. So long as there is also time for God.

The final type of music is thus the opposite. That is music that removes you from temporal concerns. This is largely limited to chants and other traditional church music. This music helps numb your senses and concerns of the world and allows you to move closer to God. Example:


Returning to the topic of joy. This is a perversion that has particularly afflicted certain Protestant churches. Joy is essentially a self-indulgent and non-graceful way of enjoying the pleasures God allows us. This is the slippery slope to indulgence of the sins of pleasure. And the indulgences of pleasure leads to resentment. That's where we are now. Not just in terms of music. But in terms of everything.

To answer the thread title's question? Yes. But it's one aspect of the same materialist mindset that pervades today.
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I'd say that's a great start, but you may be missing a couple categories. Just as the music of temporal pleasure is a bad way to celebrate God's creation, the music of temporal innocence as you call it is the proper way to celebrate it. Likewise, as the music of temporal pain is the wrong way of addressing grievances, there is music that can address them in the correct way. Anger directed against sin is not a sin and can be helpful. I would put some metal in this category, such as Megadeth because they address important world problems and not selfish concerns only.

And as there is a type of music that draws people closer to God, the opposite would be openly satanic music that directly opposes God. This is the worst possible type and should be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately many metal bands have fallen into this trap.
 
scary_robot_music said:
Andrew Anglin did a fascinating Ebonics to Standard English translation of a track by someone who goes by 42 Dugg who, I guess, is a famous rapper. Link below. I'm not a hip hop guy at all, but most hip hop tracks basically seem like this to me. Just variations on "I am a murderer who sells lots of drugs and has sex with and/or traffics a lot of women, and I own many luxury goods." I can't think of an equivalent in European culture. Maybe something lost from pre-Christian times, but there's no evidence of that as far as I know.

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Reminds me of this translation of a rap battle into plain, grammatically correct English

 
Wutang said:
Reminds me of this translation of a rap battle into plain, grammatically correct English

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That was great. "You, sir, are a weak and timid homosexual."

Maybe Anglo-Saxon rap battles in standard British or American English where only proper grammar and words found in the dictionary are allowed should be a real thing. Points deducted for any slang, and any variations on an f-bomb result in immediate disqualification.

Edit: I finished watching it. Big Band music should also definitely be a part of such rap battles, especially during any brawls that ensue.
 
Good thread. I've certainly noticed as I've developed spiritually, I have become unable to enjoy a lot of music because of its darkness. Back in the day I used to be a music hipster through and through, and in those circles it was a mark of pride for being able to listen to / 'enjoy' absolutely awful music. For me, the stuff that went in the trash first was all the amelodic punk type music, so much talent and effort dedicated to making music that is intentionally as ugly as possible. I was never big on hip-hop but a lot of other material I used to enjoy, I just ended up finding too depressing to pollute my mental space with (e.g. 90s Radiohead).

I do think there are some kinds of music that are relatively neutral, that can be used negatively or positively. An example would be house music, some of it I find quite enjoyable and useful when I'm doing long repetitive tasks or driving long distances, it allows me to enter a flow state, calm my mind and gain focus.



Conversely this could be very obviously used to take drugs and rave, fornicate etc. so I would argue this kind of music, like any tool, can be applied correctly or incorrectly. I suppose it could be argued that this flow state is flirting with elements of hypnotism but I haven't found it harmful.

In general I find myself much more drawn to instrumental music, video game and film scores, as well as classical music and so forth. Music that is calming and provides a foundation for the mind to work, without directing your thoughts or spirit in any particularly strong way (and especially not negatively).

Chanting / church music is amazing but I find I can't really stick it on the background while I'm doing something else, I feel as if that's devaluing it, it tends to demand my full attention.

Cynllo said:
Returning to the topic of joy. This is a perversion that has particularly afflicted certain Protestant churches. Joy is essentially a self-indulgent and non-graceful way of enjoying the pleasures God allows us. This is the slippery slope to indulgence of the sins of pleasure. And the indulgences of pleasure leads to resentment. That's where we are now. Not just in terms of music. But in terms of everything.
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I'm not sure I can get on board with this, joy is named by St. Paul as a fruit of the Spirit. Maybe you are trying to describe a kind of hollow euphoria.
 
Iacobus said:
Good thread. I've certainly noticed as I've developed spiritually, I have become unable to enjoy a lot of music because of its darkness. Back in the day I used to be a music hipster through and through, and in those circles it was a mark of pride for being able to listen to / 'enjoy' absolutely awful music. For me, the stuff that went in the trash first was all the amelodic punk type music, so much talent and effort dedicated to making music that is intentionally as ugly as possible. I was never big on hip-hop but a lot of other material I used to enjoy, I just ended up finding too depressing to pollute my mental space with (e.g. 90s Radiohead).

I do think there are some kinds of music that are relatively neutral, that can be used negatively or positively. An example would be house music, some of it I find quite enjoyable and useful when I'm doing long repetitive tasks or driving long distances, it allows me to enter a flow state, calm my mind and gain focus.



Conversely this could be very obviously used to take drugs and rave, fornicate etc. so I would argue this kind of music, like any tool, can be applied correctly or incorrectly. I suppose it could be argued that this flow state is flirting with elements of hypnotism but I haven't found it harmful.

In general I find myself much more drawn to instrumental music, video game and film scores, as well as classical music and so forth. Music that is calming and provides a foundation for the mind to work, without directing your thoughts or spirit in any particularly strong way (and especially not negatively).

Chanting / church music is amazing but I find I can't really stick it on the background while I'm doing something else, I feel as if that's devaluing it, it tends to demand my full attention.



I'm not sure I can get on board with this, joy is named by St. Paul as a fruit of the Spirit. Maybe you are trying to describe a kind of hollow euphoria.
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My six-year-old daughter heard your track and started grooving to it. She's got pretty good taste in music and she's half Latina so she can dance. I liked it too.

The scripture you mentioned about joy from Galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
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I don't think it could be more clear that real joy is a good thing. I attend services at a Catholic community with my wife and the constant, relentless emphasis on suffering really gets me down sometimes. When we first started going I'd sometimes talk about how happy I am at this point in my life, how things are going really well and I'm grateful for what I have, but I eventually picked up on the fact that no one wants to hear that kind of thing. They want to hear about suffering. I don't get why the Catholics in our community suffer year in, year out with no improvement and keep coming back. It seems like you'd want to change something and fix that.
 
I have been thinking about this recently and I think modern music has a HUGE influence on people probably more than we realise. Father Seraphim Rose has some good writings about art and music and he made some good points about how the art produced of the times kind of shows us where we are in society, he also made a good point about how music in the past was basically traditional and obviously today its not at all quite the opposite, the way music is also done today with modern technology also seems to be something very new in our history, the frequencies, beats and rhythms and dance techniques used in modern music seem to have an almost brainwashing hypnotic, kind of effect, like when a snake charmer plays the flute to make a snake dance. The people in the music industry also have very dodggy characters and you hear of them making packs with devils and selling their souls etc so it is quite a concerning thing to ponder about since music is a form of art.
 
Iacobus said:
Good thread. I've certainly noticed as I've developed spiritually, I have become unable to enjoy a lot of music because of its darkness. Back in the day I used to be a music hipster through and through, and in those circles it was a mark of pride for being able to listen to / 'enjoy' absolutely awful music. For me, the stuff that went in the trash first was all the amelodic punk type music, so much talent and effort dedicated to making music that is intentionally as ugly as possible. I was never big on hip-hop but a lot of other material I used to enjoy, I just ended up finding too depressing to pollute my mental space with (e.g. 90s Radiohead).

I do think there are some kinds of music that are relatively neutral, that can be used negatively or positively. An example would be house music, some of it I find quite enjoyable and useful when I'm doing long repetitive tasks or driving long distances, it allows me to enter a flow state, calm my mind and gain focus.



Conversely this could be very obviously used to take drugs and rave, fornicate etc. so I would argue this kind of music, like any tool, can be applied correctly or incorrectly. I suppose it could be argued that this flow state is flirting with elements of hypnotism but I haven't found it harmful.

In general I find myself much more drawn to instrumental music, video game and film scores, as well as classical music and so forth. Music that is calming and provides a foundation for the mind to work, without directing your thoughts or spirit in any particularly strong way (and especially not negatively).

Chanting / church music is amazing but I find I can't really stick it on the background while I'm doing something else, I feel as if that's devaluing it, it tends to demand my full attention.



I'm not sure I can get on board with this, joy is named by St. Paul as a fruit of the Spirit. Maybe you are trying to describe a kind of hollow euphoria.
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Iv experienced something similar too, even when I was still a protestant before I was even married, I had a big sound system in my car with heavy bass and I used to drink and drive a lot and go to night clubs and parties etc and the kinds of music I used to play was house music, hip hop those kinds and when I got really turned onto God when a protestant already in those days I just knew I had to get rid of this music in my life without anyone telling me, I threw all my CDs away and got rid of my sound system because when that music was played it makes you want to sin, I was still fornicating that was a seperate addiction that doesnt require music but I lost the desire to go to night clubs and parties, eventually years later I was kind of forced to go to a night club and I just stood on the dance floor looking around in disgust and I felt so awkward and out of place I was frozen I couldnt even move everyone could notice and they all asked what was wrong, whats wrong
 
GoodShepherd said:
Iv experienced something similar too, even when I was still a protestant before I was even married, I had a big sound system in my car with heavy bass and I used to drink and drive a lot and go to night clubs and parties etc and the kinds of music I used to play was house music, hip hop those kinds and when I got really turned onto God when a protestant already in those days I just knew I had to get rid of this music in my life without anyone telling me, I threw all my CDs away and got rid of my sound system because when that music was played it makes you want to sin, I was still fornicating that was a seperate addiction that doesnt require music but I lost the desire to go to night clubs and parties, eventually years later I was kind of forced to go to a night club and I just stood on the dance floor looking around in disgust and I felt so awkward and out of place I was frozen I couldnt even move everyone could notice and they all asked what was wrong, whats wrong
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Nightclubs are akin to satanic inverted liturgies...

The DJ is the priest. The lights/patterns
like stained glass/iconography. The smoke machine/cigarettes are the incense. The rap/EDM is the chanting/hymnology. People commune around alcohol/drugs then commit adultery/abortion...just think about it...

Stay away from these demonic portal zones.
 
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Most music at least from a Rock Perspective was probably a Psy-Op mostly by the Powers that be. I believe there have been books that have covered this, especially the 60s California Psychedelic Scene, The Doors, Grateful Dead, etc. And so on and so forth with the decades and genres that followed, that continued to push the Envelope of Shock or Degeneracy. Of course there is a Craft behind the Veil of Disguise for lack of a better description, actually some folks love their Craft of Music through mastering playing their instruments, or vocal Uniqueness and Stage Performance. So that being said, I am aware of some unsavory messages, but with what i believe good raising and good community influence let me ignore the impure and enjoy the art.

I would say most of the bands that I enjoyed probably are heavily Cultural Marxists or what was Generically labeled as Left, 40 years ago...basically you had the Environmentalism, and Animal Rights, and of course the Gender Bend Homo Normalization. The typical 80s 90s preachy diatribe. I just ignored that and enjoyed the craft and art of it. You could tell it lost direction and steam as an interesting hobby by the mid 90s. The artists as a general rule lost Charisma and True Artistic Charm.

Everything became Hip Hop, which IMO became the Default Voice or Music of all Youth from an Industry that became lazy or just found it easier and more profitable to push out dumbed down word mumble and predictable back beats. Rock became even worse than Warrant Type Hair bands. They tried to be edgey, but sadly edgeness was perfected in the 70s to 90s Underground Alternative Indie Music. That stuff though genrally radical was a bit more clever as a craft. Not defending the messages, just saying imo it had more bite. Probably sound like a hyporite, but I believe if you have decent raising and self discipline you don't necessarily have to be pulled into the wicked messaging, but maybe some folks should stay away if they are easily influenced.

It's really No surprise that Modern Music isn't exactly Pure in its delivery since it has an inordinate amount of the Tribe Running it business wise. Rock, Rap, and Country.
 
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