Ideal time to be in dating stage before engagement/marriage?

[Pius]

Courting a woman for too long before marriage apparently used to be considered a near occasion of sin by many, and it makes sense.

Building a relationship that includes several hours a week alone together, (chaste) affection, and emotional intimacy with a woman you're attracted to seems to be a remote occasion of sin in and of itself, and needs a weighty enough reason to be done licitly.

If a couple is preparing for marriage, then the reason is present, since no one can be expected to marry a total stranger. But if a couple is dating with no intention of marriage, or if at least one of them is unable/unwilling to marry within a reasonable amount of time, then they are entering into occasions of sin without just reason, and sinning in doing so. Hence, why it is a bad idea for teenagers or those in the early stages of college to be dating, even if they are devout in their faith.

But the question remains as to what a reasonable amount of time is. Personally, I think it should be two years maximum between starting the relationship and being married, perhaps engagement at the halfway point. This way, there is plenty of time to discern with each other, and prevent any common problems that arise from dating for too long.

Three successful relationships from couples I know from my parish went:

Dating: 1 year
Engaged: 1 year
Total Time: 2 years

Dating: 8 months
Engaged: 7 months
Total Time: 15 months

Dating: 4 months
Engaged: 10 months
Total Time: 16 months


What do you guys think?

 

[Thomas More]

When I read the first part of your post, I was picturing two years as the kind of thing that leads to temptation and sin. Why would a couple who loves one another and desires marriage choose to put things off for years? Or so it seems to me.

This is not a problem for secular couples. They jump in bed when it is clear they like each other that way, often between the first and third dates.

However, if a Christian couple is marriage minded, I would think they would be looking to get to the finish line, and not drag things out.

I think 12-15 months is a sober, deliberative amount of time. I think it is prudent to wait at least 6 months, and probably good to push for 12 months out of caution.

I suppose there is the issue of getting cold feet. Some would say it's better to allow a long time for cold feet to show up. Maybe so. Marry in haste, repent in leisure. However, I'd say to use a better level of judgment in choosing who to date in the first place. Only date marriage material, then when the passion takes hold, go for it.

YMMV

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

These long dating phases and drawn out engagements that are so prevalent today are due to promiscuity. It's all about dating up and holding out for the chance that you might find someone better. They are trying to keep their options open even while they're talking about tying the knot. Free sex destroys the need for a marriage, so now time is spent on "making sure" your partner crosses every t and dots every i.

There used to be none of this nonsense. If you found someone, you loved each other, you got married, you started having babies. What's the hold up?

Nowadays, you have sex, you date, maybe you get married. What's the rush?

 

[Caduceus]

There is an important aspect many people forget here.
In the past you and your family knew BOTH the medical and professional history of the family the girl came from, often because both families lived for centuries in the same town or village.
Everyone knew the reputation of every family....it was common knowledge if they had drunkards, thieves, poverty, disabilities, crazies, heart problems, early death, or simply laziness among them.

Nowadays you have no clue among the larger family you are marrying into.
Your girl could be prone to all sorts of physical and mental disabilities and pass that onto your kids.
She could also have a huge amount of bad influences from divorced parents and untrustworthy siblings.

So, I do think it's prudent to know as much as you can about your potential bride's family....both in terms of medical history and in terms of how they live their lives. Nowadays this simply takes a lot more time to gather this sort of information, which in the past you knew right from the start.

 

[TrainedLogosmotion]

Courting a woman for too long before marriage apparently used to be considered a near occasion of sin by many, and it makes sense.

Building a relationship that includes several hours a week alone together, (chaste) affection, and emotional intimacy with a woman you're attracted to seems to be a remote occasion of sin in and of itself, and needs a weighty enough reason to be done licitly.

If a couple is preparing for marriage, then the reason is present, since no one can be expected to marry a total stranger. But if a couple is dating with no intention of marriage, or if at least one of them is unable/unwilling to marry within a reasonable amount of time, then they are entering into occasions of sin without just reason, and sinning in doing so. Hence, why it is a bad idea for teenagers or those in the early stages of college to be dating, even if they are devout in their faith.

But the question remains as to what a reasonable amount of time is. Personally, I think it should be two years maximum between starting the relationship and being married, perhaps engagement at the halfway point. This way, there is plenty of time to discern with each other, and prevent any common problems that arise from dating for too long.

Three successful relationships from couples I know from my parish went:

Dating: 1 year
Engaged: 1 year
Total Time: 2 years

Dating: 8 months
Engaged: 7 months
Total Time: 15 months

Dating: 4 months
Engaged: 10 months
Total Time: 16 months


What do you guys think?

Way too long in my opinion! I'll give an example of a successful one from my Parish. Couple has been together for 60+ years. They met at a Bible study, which they still go to together. He told me if there had been a way he would have married her after the first Bible study. But there wasn't a wedding chapel nearby so they had to wait a week. It's a beautiful story but I'm butchering it.

 

[Rational1]

These long dating phases and drawn out engagements that are so prevalent today are due to promiscuity. It's all about dating up and holding out for the chance that you might find someone better. They are trying to keep their options open even while they're talking about tying the knot. Free sex destroys the need for a marriage, so now time is spent on "making sure" your partner crosses every t and dots every i.

There used to be none of this nonsense. If you found someone, you loved each other, you got married, you started having babies. What's the hold up?

Nowadays, you have sex, you date, maybe you get married. What's the rush?

This post is spot on. It’s a jungle out there and I can’t help but laugh at how arrogant some women are. Example, this mid-20s woman was complaining that she couldn’t find a guy who was good enough for her. Yet she’s barely employed and living at home with her grandparents. I told her that’s not necessarily an issue if she wanted to be a good wife and find a man to take care of her, but it would require monogamy and commitment. Her response, not a chance she wants to have fun and have sex with multiple men.

I don’t know how we got to this point, but we did.

 

[Blade Runner]

I told her that’s not necessarily an issue if she wanted to be a good wife and find a man to take care of her, but it would require monogamy and commitment. Her response, not a chance she wants to have fun and have sex with multiple men.

This is the difference, indeed. Men in both checking out and seeing the only thing women have to offer, are acting rationally, I'm sad to say. It goes back to the most basic, universal principle: incentive.

With women looking forward to many things in life, they throw away valuable years, and that throws away family formation, since men only really desire to be with younger women (early 20s). What's my incentive to stay with a woman who has already shown me she "valued" other men (no longer around) with her most valuable years? That's the hard truth no one wants to admit.

We got to this point by selling a dream to people who don't have the capability, on average, to see the big picture of life. And the powers that be neutralized fathers, largely, from any real decision making for daughters, or influence.

 

[Samseau]

These long dating phases and drawn out engagements that are so prevalent today are due to promiscuity. It's all about dating up and holding out for the chance that you might find someone better. They are trying to keep their options open even while they're talking about tying the knot. Free sex destroys the need for a marriage, so now time is spent on "making sure" your partner crosses every t and dots every i.

There used to be none of this nonsense. If you found someone, you loved each other, you got married, you started having babies. What's the hold up?

Nowadays, you have sex, you date, maybe you get married. What's the rush?

While absolutely true, you are only telling half the story.

Rushing into marriage only makes sense if you marrying are virgin, due to the ever looming threat of divorce rape.

If you don't know who she is, then you have no choice but to do an extended courtship to make sure you aren't marrying a disloyal skank.

Extended courtship isn't for the woman as much as it is for the man. The man has way more to lose by rushing into marriage with a terrible woman who can destroy him. Additionally a man has more time in the dating game, so spending a few years dating is 1000x better than a soul-crushing divorce. There really isn't any other way to test for loyalty.

If things were like it used to be in the good ole days, where you married the neighbor's daughter from the farm a few miles away who just turned 18, then yeah, I'd say get married ASAP and enjoy life. But obviously we are so fallen from that there is no choice but for extended courtship - especially because of "no fault" divorce.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

While absolutely true, you are only telling half the story.

Rushing into marriage only makes sense if you marrying are virgin, due to the ever looming threat of divorce rape.

If you don't know who she is, then you have no choice but to do an extended courtship to make sure you aren't marrying a disloyal skank.

Extended courtship isn't for the woman as much as it is for the man. The man has way more to lose by rushing into marriage with a terrible woman who can destroy him. Additionally a man has more time in the dating game, so spending a few years dating is 1000x better than a soul-crushing divorce. There really isn't any other way to test for loyalty.

If things were like it used to be in the good ole days, where you married the neighbor's daughter from the farm a few miles away who just turned 18, then yeah, I'd say get married ASAP and enjoy life. But obviously we are so fallen from that there is no choice but for extended courtship - especially because of "no fault" divorce.

Unfortunately, there is no contingency for personal responsibility, at least not in this world. Just as the Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution for a moral and religious people, so too did God create marriage for a moral and religious people.

You can court a woman for a year, you can court her for 5 years, but once you do get married, there isn't much you can do to stop her from turning your world upside down with divorce 10 years down the road.

So there is always going to be a degree of trust on either side, such is the covenantal nature of marriage.

If you have friends or family members that view marriage as "missing out" on the promiscuous life, then they need to be cut off for their evil influence. It is also prudent to make sure that your prospect keeps no such influence around either.

 

[Blade Runner]

Extended courtship isn't for the woman as much as it is for the man. The man has way more to lose by rushing into marriage with a terrible woman who can destroy him. Additionally a man has more time in the dating game, so spending a few years dating is 1000x better than a soul-crushing divorce. There really isn't any other way to test for loyalty.

Yes, indeed.

So there is always going to be a degree of trust on either side, such is the covenantal nature of marriage.

That is of course true, but if you reason by extreme Samseau's points are proven. When you have zero protection on the back side, you can't argue that you shouldn't do more trying, investigating, sifting, etc.

 

[Samseau]

Unfortunately, there is no contingency for personal responsibility, at least not in this world. Just as the Founding Fathers drafted the Constitution for a moral and religious people, so too did God create marriage for a moral and religious people.

You sure about that? Because God created marriage with the contingency that adultery would be punishable by death. Then Jesus came and told people to soften their hearts, and simply to let adulterers be put away quietly.

Nowadays, adulterers can walk away with the kids and half your stuff. God never intended for any of this, this is all man-made. Marriage was always meant to be created with punishments, of some kind, for adultery. No punishments for adultery is insane by any metric.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

Nowadays, adulterers can walk away with the kids and half your stuff. God never intended for any of this, this is all man-made. Marriage was always meant to be created with punishments, of some kind, for adultery. No punishments for adultery is insane by any metric.

This is my point. If the law were just then adultery would still be something that people feared committing, rather than something that is incentivized. So if you desire a marriage that God blesses, the world is stacking the deck against you, there is no question about that.

Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself if the deck is stacked so high that you quit playing (a mentality that I am not a fan of) or if you will play with the cards you are dealt with, trusting in God's Will for you, no matter the outcome.

Fundamentally, marriage (and any relationship) always requires trust to work, so there is no way to absolutely guarantee the outcome, if that is too frightening, then do not get married.

 

[Blade Runner]

Ultimately, you have to decide for yourself if the deck is stacked so high that you quit playing (a mentality that I am not a fan of) or if you will play with the cards you are dealt with, trusting in God's Will for you, no matter the outcome.

The way that you approach this topic is the reason why in the past there have been many discussions or arguments about it. To be blunt, your arguments are imprecise and lazy. You couch it in "trust in God" which no one can deny is something that is good, but you completely ignore the fact that we are active participants in life, especially as men, and not passive observers or hopers without discernment or action. Notice that I don't say "quit playing" I say play in a better environment, not in a broken one. Huge difference.

You don't have to go into the jungle and play with the snakes or tigers. So why would you? And then use the reasoning of "trusting in God's will"? It's nonsensical. That's like telling me to bet on longshots and then "trust in God's will". Uhh, no. I don't do that in gambling and I don't do it in business. It isn't prudent.

Want another example? Marry the girl with a past (I could present all sorts of pasts, from completely sordid ho all the way to a few partners, to not so many) and then look past this as something you should consider because of some appeal to God ("I hope she's truly repentant!" lol). Think about how weird that is, beyond the fact that it's suggesting people to not use their faculties (be dumb).

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

To be blunt, your arguments are imprecise and lazy.

To be blunt, so are your arguments. Post after post you bemoan the state of things in the west, all the while fantasizing over the idea of a foreign wife. So get one! What are you still complaining about?

 

[Blade Runner]

To be blunt, so are your arguments. Post after post you bemoan the state of things in the west, all the while fantasizing over the idea of a foreign wife. So get one! What are you still complaining about?

I said why. That's the difference between me and other posters. As a result, they could hardly be imprecise or lazy. If you actually read and understand them.

They serve as recommendations against bad advice, which is what I see, when throwing caution to the wind in the west. Now, life does entail risk, so long as it is measured, I have no problem with it. I don't think most guys truly understand how bad things are out there, or how bad they can get. That's why I'm wary of such ideas.

 

[Steady Hands]

Dear Kings

This is a friendly reminder to do your due diligence in your screening.

Make sure you see her under stress before getting blessed. Let's see how she treats you after a cancelled flight and sleepover on a metal chair at a Nepalese airport without wifi.



^ Thousands of women comment on videos like this one "OMG sooo relatable lol"

 

[Blade Runner]

Dear Kings

This is a friendly reminder to do your due diligence in your screening.

Make sure you see her under stress before getting blessed. Let's see how she treats you after a cancelled flight and sleepover on a metal chair at a Nepalese airport without wifi.



^ Thousands of women comment on videos like this one "OMG sooo relatable lol"

Her titles are actually funny, but imagine having to "worry" about an asian barely 5.5 - without a bad atmosphere and/or social media she'd be told either nothing, or just shut up. And her life would be much better.

 

[Rational1]

Her titles are actually funny, but imagine having to "worry" about an asian barely 5.5 - without a bad atmosphere and/or social media she'd be told either nothing, or just shut up. And her life would be much better.

The levels of delusion we are living in is unheard of. I don’t think the social media phenomenon that is promoting this nonsense is going away any time soon barring a worldwide disaster or literal act of God that I am praying for.

 

[Blade Runner]

The levels of delusion we are living in is unheard of. I don’t think the social media phenomenon that is promoting this nonsense is going away any time soon barring a worldwide disaster or literal act of God that I am praying for.

When you consider the biological realities of humans, and how clowny the world is (and we don't even really talk about people "changing their sex"!), the world is unbelievably delusional. I don't really see a way out either, sadly, you can at best catch an earlier wave in a different country - otherwise you'll have to really hope for a quick return to some normalcy when a calamity hits - which is unlikely.

 

[Australia Sucks]

To be blunt, so are your arguments. Post after post you bemoan the state of things in the west, all the while fantasizing over the idea of a foreign wife. So get one! What are you still complaining about?

You act as if this is something that can be done immediately. Its a long drawn out process over many years. And you are being disingenuous by pretending its quick and easy to do when you know full well the truth about how hard it all is.

First you cannot bring a foreign woman to the west because she will likely get corrupted. So you need to become financially independent to be able to comfortably live in foreign country where salaries are low and you may not have full work rights etc. In addition if you are not wealthier than local men why would a girl choose you instead of a man from her own country? So that is another reason why you need money.

To achieve financial independence takes many years. Then to get permanent residency and also gain fluency in a foreign language will generally take a number of years. Then to find a woman, court her, date, get engaged and then to get married will also take a number of years.

So realistically even once you are financially independent it will likely still take 3 - 7 years to marry a foreign woman (learn the local language, get permanent residency or citizenship, meet a suitable woman, then start dating, then get engaged, then get married).

Although the stages don't necessarily have to be in order and can run concurrently to some extent overall what I wrote above applies. If I am not mistaken Blade Runner is mostly in the first stage of working on becoming financially independent as am I.