Christian Morality Thread

[Wutang]

^ The guy who wrote that is one of those rationalistic scientific types so his thesis was based on non-spiritual, naturalistic reasoning. He basically said some ex-samurai saw conversion to Christianity as a way to deal with their lost of status in the post-feudal Meiji Japanese empire and that since these people were the old, well-bred elite that already tended to be high educated, they ended up still becoming pretty high status in the new empire which led to Japanese high society having a disproportionate amount of Christians at least for a period of time.

 

[Get2choppaaa]

In the Bible when the Roman legionaries who heard John the Baptist teach that every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire, asked him for life advice, haven't been told to quit soldiering for the empire, he only instructed them not to oppress or extort the defeated peoples.

This is an excellent post...and a good example of refuting atheists who ignorantly attempt to weaponize Christianity against Christians.

There are many Christian saints who are soldiers.

The way it's been presented to me from The Church (and why we bless our soldiers in the liturgy) is that the person on the position isn't to blame for the circumstances of war. Just like a home intruder in your house or your apartment or your car. You have an Inherent right and obligation to self defense...Rather they are called not to knowingly or willfully kill innocents. There is chance to murder.

 

[thinkreadwritecode]

I am curious as to this forum's perspective on gambling and the stock market and if the two are equivalent. I realize the stock market favors the rich and pilfers the little guy, but is it a sin to try to invest? Is investing any different from gambling? I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw out there a "gotcha" but am curious how others here see this since we have a blend of Christianity here.

 

[NSOE]

Good question, issuing shares originally was just another way for companies to raise cash.

Casinos are huge cash cows for state governments, they approved several casinos in Massholechusetts a few years ago, desperate governments will start legalizing prostitution soon.

SE Asians love gambling, they pray to ancestors for help in winning. Buses are running on an almost regular schedule from NYC's Chinatown to the casinos in neighboring states,

found this online, NJ skims 13%, winners must pay their share too,

NJ GROSS CASINO GAMING REVENUE 2024 $6.30B GAMING TAX REVENUE 2024 $799.3M.

In the state of Connecticut fake Indian tribes were invented to circumvent bans, casinos emerged on their lands, lots of Chinese work in and visit them to play.

I've heard it's Biblical- if all taxes together amount to more than 10% of one's income, they're unjust and unlawful.

 

[Read_Lives_of_Saints]

I am curious as to this forum's perspective on gambling and the stock market and if the two are equivalent. I realize the stock market favors the rich and pilfers the little guy, but is it a sin to try to invest? Is investing any different from gambling? I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw out there a "gotcha" but am curious how others here see this since we have a blend of Christianity here.

Gambling is mostly unproductive speculation where money creates money, an unnatural practice lampooned in Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice":

In The Merchant of Venice, the concept of making money from money—usury—is central to the play's exploration of morality, economics, and identity. Shylock, the Jewish moneylender, explicitly practices this by lending money at interest, which he justifies by referencing biblical stories, such as Jacob breeding Laban’s sheep, to argue that money can "breed" more money. This idea is directly challenged by Antonio, a Christian merchant, who condemns usury as unnatural, claiming that money should not "breed" more money, a view rooted in Christian doctrine that views interest as immoral. However, the play reveals a deep irony: despite condemning Shylock, Antonio himself engages in a form of usury through his business practices, as his trade involves investing capital to generate profit, effectively making money from money through commerce.

and also makes one anxious about the future, which is cautioned against in The Gospels in Matthew ch. 6, v. 25-34.

“Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? “Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? “Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; “and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. “Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ “For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. “Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

My opinion is that the stock market, and also the monetary system in general, have increasingly become like casinos where the house changes the rules for itself at will and is really just so much smoke and mirrors, meaning there are more and more abstract layers upon layers of belief needed to sustain it, but belief in what?

The devil wants us to believe in him and he constructs elaborate schemes in order to get us gradually pointed away from Jesus and in his direction, even if it takes hundreds of years to do so.

I would argue that the entire monetary system has become usurious because money is created as debt, although it is certainly beyond my/our control to change that, and it's also nearly impossible to withdraw from the system, so I think a lot of caution is best when investing because it continually draws one's attention toward money, ultimately focusing it upon something that is abstract and a distraction from Jesus, who is the realest and most concrete of all.

 

[GrecoRoman]

I am curious as to this forum's perspective on gambling and the stock market and if the two are equivalent. I realize the stock market favors the rich and pilfers the little guy, but is it a sin to try to invest? Is investing any different from gambling? I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw out there a "gotcha" but am curious how others here see this since we have a blend of Christianity here.

I don’t think either are immoral in and of themselves, but like everything else it’s situation dependent. I don’t see how playing poker with your buddies is a sin, unless you are also engaging in other vices and that’s where the issue with gambling occurs.

Casinos in general can be sad places, because outside of a very select few games like poker, blackjack, and wagering on sports, you are guaranteed to lose money over the long haul. With a negative mathematical expectation, even if you are losing a dollar or loose change on every bet, you will inevitably lose. Then there are the associated vices like substance abuse and prostitution which are rampant in these places. They don’t call Vegas sin city for nothing. So spending a lot of time there is bad for your salvation.

I used to play poker when I was younger, and I didn’t see it as immoral. The way I saw it was I was playing a game and the other participants were making a choice to play in that game. Now if they were addicts (some were) you can argue they weren’t consciously making that choice, but I wasn’t forcing them play or make certain bets. It’s technically gambling, but really it’s a game of incomplete information, that uses cards as devices. If over thousands of hours a player makes plays with an edge he will win, if he doesn’t he will lose. What happens minute to minute or hour to hour means very little.

The stock market is similar and outside of actively investing in companies that are killing people or making the world worse, I don’t see how it can be a sin or immoral as a participant. If someone is an elite using their power to subjugate and destroy the masses, then I can see how it is a sin.

There are nuances to this, am I committing a sin if I own some large fund that has say Meta in it because social media is a bad influence? Maybe, but probably not. In that case everybody in corporate America with a 401k is damned, which is a ridiculous notion.

Ideally, you’d like to invest in full on Christian companies, but even these aren’t a lock since many have been usurped.

These are my opinions, but for a better explanation of whether it’s a sin or not, it’s best to consult with a priest.

 

[Blade Runner]

Is investing any different from gambling? I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw out there a "gotcha" but am curious how others here see this since we have a blend of Christianity here.

At this point it's so manipulated (markets), all that it lacks is a binary type (win loss) settlement aspect in the short term to differentiate it from "gambling." You can be on the right side having little knowledge or anything, depending on elites in class A or traders in group B. One thing that is somewhat skillful is seeing the long term aspect of things, and holding for gains, but if we're honest mostly this is more about recognizing one of two things: technology and/or the debt/usury system which requires increased nominal "values" of assets (further money printing) to stay alive.

I would argue that the entire monetary system has become usurious because money is created as debt, although it is certainly beyond my/our control to change that, and it's also nearly impossible to withdraw from the system, so I think a lot of caution is best when investing because it continually draws one's attention toward money, ultimately focusing it upon something that is abstract and a distraction from Jesus, who is the realest and most concrete of all.

Exactly. We've been in a world of usury basically post enlightenment, at least a major and global one with organized central banking. We have our role to play, but the arc of history clearly goes this way and with increasing (anti human) technology. What we do with that is just to do our best, trusting in God. Everything else is just a guess as to why it's happening, if it's OK, etc.

 

[Thomas More]

I am curious as to this forum's perspective on gambling and the stock market and if the two are equivalent. I realize the stock market favors the rich and pilfers the little guy, but is it a sin to try to invest? Is investing any different from gambling? I'm not trying to be pedantic or throw out there a "gotcha" but am curious how others here see this since we have a blend of Christianity here.

I think it can be argued that the stock market is somewhat like gambling. However, there is a difference. Gambling is primarily a game of chance. Even games of skill such as poker still ultimately rely on the chance of the card draw. Investment in stocks is buying a piece of the company, which serves to provide capital for the company to grow.

The stock owner can receive dividends from the company's profits, in addition to seeing gains when the stock value increases. A prudent investor who invests in stocks of profitable and growing companies can make a fortune over time by participating in real economic growth and production. While there is an element of risk in predicting which companies will grow and be profitable, it is based on estimation of future trends, not pure chance.