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Collapse of The Roman Empire

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Christos_NIKA

Christos_NIKA

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I have sometimes wondered if it would be helpful to study what the men did during the collapse of the Roman Empire, since there are great parallels. Actually, I've always wished there were an historical novel in that vein, or a film/series that depicted it. Granted, the Roman Empire took about 400 years to collapse (in the West), the USA is managing to do it in 40 years, due to modern technology (10x faster).
What did the Roman men do? Did they scatter to the ends of the collapsing empire and become farmers, mercenaries, etc.? Did they create local militias? I honestly don't know, but Europe survived. We can take solace in that, I think.
 
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Christos_NIKA said:
I have sometimes wondered if it would be helpful to study what the men did during the collapse of the Roman Empire, since there are great parallels. Actually, I've always wished there were an historical novel in their vein, or a film/series that depicted it. Granted, the Roman Empire took about 400 years to collapse (in the West), the USA is managing to do it in 40 years, due to modern technology (10x faster).
What did the Roman men do? Did they scatter to the ends of the collapsing empire and become farmers, mercenaries, etc.? Did they create local militias? I honestly don't know, but Europe survived. We can take solace in that, I think.
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The best comparison is Weimar Germany. People just take for granted the National Socialists took over with a single election. There were years of voice suppression (Charlottesvile, Elon Musk/Twitter lies), distrust (calling them "feds"), political prison activity (January 6th), and very desperate times to the point people were prostituting their own daughters to put food on the table (Only Fans), fights in the right wing (conservatives v. fascists, Catholics v. Protestants), all in the midst of a hot civil war (seems to be on the way), between the time of the loss of WW1 and Nazi Germany of 1936.
 
Christos_NIKA said:
I have sometimes wondered if it would be helpful to study what the men did during the collapse of the Roman Empire, since there are great parallels. Actually, I've always wished there were an historical novel in that vein, or a film/series that depicted it. Granted, the Roman Empire took about 400 years to collapse (in the West), the USA is managing to do it in 40 years, due to modern technology (10x faster).
What did the Roman men do? Did they scatter to the ends of the collapsing empire and become farmers, mercenaries, etc.? Did they create local militias? I honestly don't know, but Europe survived. We can take solace in that, I think.
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The answer is very simple. The Romans became Christians, that is how they survived, it is the only reason they survived. No one tells truthful history anymore.
 
Christos_NIKA said:
I have sometimes wondered if it would be helpful to study what the men did during the collapse of the Roman Empire, since there are great parallels. Actually, I've always wished there were an historical novel in that vein, or a film/series that depicted it. Granted, the Roman Empire took about 400 years to collapse (in the West), the USA is managing to do it in 40 years, due to modern technology (10x faster).
What did the Roman men do? Did they scatter to the ends of the collapsing empire and become farmers, mercenaries, etc.? Did they create local militias? I honestly don't know, but Europe survived. We can take solace in that, I think.
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As the Roman Empire receded, new Kingdoms formed in the hinterlands, such as in Britain, and on the northern coast of what is now Belgium. During those late stages, you had all the movements of new peoples, such as the Vandals, the Visigoths, the Ostrogoths, the Franks, and so on.

It would be very interesting indeed to read historical fiction about some migrating chief that settles in a new area and forms a new Kingdom.
 
Samseau said:
The answer is very simple. The Romans became Christians, that is how they survived, it is the only reason they survived. No one tells truthful history anymore.
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Yes, of course, but I meant more in the sense of everyday life, what they did, where they went, how they survived in an age where the Pax Romana was gone and Europe was in upheaval. Too bad James Michener didn't write a novel about it. He would have been perfect for that.
 
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A lot of people say it is not accurate to refer to the middle ages as the dark ages, because civilization still continued on in Europe during that time.

However, in fact Britain receded completely to a non-literate state for several centuries. After the Roman Empire abandoned Britain, some Roman cities remained intact, and life continued as it had, but these cities faltered and were abandoned over a matter of a few decades, until the remnants of Roman civilization were entirely gone.

For several centuries, we don't have any real record of what happened. There were kingdoms and battles that existed, but we know almost nothing about them. What we do know was from epic songs that were sung and repeated by bards, telling stories of great kings and battles. However, these songs are a poor source of historical information. First of all, the songs can be expected to spin the story in favor of one side or the other, without an objective telling of the facts as we would like to have. Secondly, these songs were only written down 100s of years later around 900AD, when some literate priests were finally present again in the area to record them. We have no other historical data about the places or events named in the epics, and can only guess where or when they might have been.

So, considering the English language historical tradition will naturally favor the point of view from Britain, it really is true that there was a dark ages that lasted for several centuries after Rome fell.
 
The empire of pagan Rome may have collapsed, but the various tribes and kindgoms surrounding it were not all pagan. There is evidence that the marauding vandals even converted to the Christianity before all of Rome even did itself. We can name contributing factors to the collapse of the old Roman state but the main subject has already been touched upon by other posters. A great aspect of the collapse of one government and the rise of multiple new ones is due to the changing of the faith. The zealousness of Christians is unrivalled, especially those of the early centuries. It overpowered pagan apathy and idol worship to such an extent never seen before in human history, not even under the original Hebrews. For the first time ever, millions of people were being baptized, and not killed, which is thus evidence of the truth of Christ's teachings early on. While the northern countries kept much of their pagan ways for the next thousand years (Sweden, Norway, Iceland, parts of Finland and Denmark) the bulwark of European Christian civilization was built among the established nations of the tribes that succeeded the Roman governate.

@Thomas More the song of Roland is an example of the type of song you are referring to, it was written allegedly in the 1100s about a general of Charlemagne who oversaw a battle in 778AD. But a more telling history is that of the land itself, and the architecture, the transition from wood to stone to metal and so on, in the structures that are surviving and ruined. It is clear that the innovation of the Greeks and Romans, while not architecturally spread out across the vast swathes of western and eastern Europe, influenced the builders of those centuries. Some abbeys in northern France were started in the 5th century, nowadays huge castles or cathedrals stand in their place, but it shows that the spread of Christendom was not some specific logarithmic search pattern, but simply men following the commands of the disciples for centuries on end. Therefore, whatever "dark ages" may have occurred, it did not seem to be so to those of that time, despite the lack of writings from that era. The ability to read and write was not commonplace for all, going back even further even Julius Caesar himself was called childish insults when he released his Commentarii de Bello Gallico for perceived poor writing skills.

This should be an interesting thread, one that is much harder to determine the exact "this or that" reason because of how far back the time goes. But if we can debate against atheists on the divinity of Christ (and ignore jews on their foul opinions) we can certainly debate flimsy historians on this time period with enough will to delve into it.
 
I recently read The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization by Bryan Ward-Perkins. I've been meaning to do a write-up because it would fit right in with the Decline of Functioning Society thread we have on here.

In the book he presents evidence for the dramatic decline in living standards that the average Roman citizen endured as the empire collapsed. The book is unique in that he approaches it from an archeological perspective (rather than soley as a historian citing texts) by focussing on items that every day Romans used - items that Rome was able to produce at a very high quality and distribute throughout the empire (ie their supply chain).

Specifically he focusses on the clay tiles they used for their roofing, the vases they used for storage (Amphorae), their ability to mint coinage for economic transactions, the architectural complexity of the buildings they were able to construct, etc. While they may all sound mundane he uses this archeological evidence to show how Rome lost the ability to make and distribute things the average Roman citizen took for granted and just how hard it impacted their quality of life - "The Disappearance of Comfort" is the header for chapter 5 for eg.

One point he makes that I thought was very apropos to modern day society is that the barbarians who took over Rome were not trying to destroy it, they merely wanted to share in the wealth; a piece of the pie as it were. Sound familiar? The problem was they simply did not posses the competence to keep the empire functioning at the same level as the Romans.
 
Thomas More said:
A lot of people say it is not accurate to refer to the middle ages as the dark ages, because civilization still continued on in Europe during that time.

However, in fact Britain receded completely to a non-literate state for several centuries. After the Roman Empire abandoned Britain, some Roman cities remained intact, and life continued as it had, but these cities faltered and were abandoned over a matter of a few decades, until the remnants of Roman civilization were entirely gone.

For several centuries, we don't have any real record of what happened. There were kingdoms and battles that existed, but we know almost nothing about them. What we do know was from epic songs that were sung and repeated by bards, telling stories of great kings and battles. However, these songs are a poor source of historical information. First of all, the songs can be expected to spin the story in favor of one side or the other, without an objective telling of the facts as we would like to have. Secondly, these songs were only written down 100s of years later around 900AD, when some literate priests were finally present again in the area to record them. We have no other historical data about the places or events named in the epics, and can only guess where or when they might have been.

So, considering the English language historical tradition will naturally favor the point of view from Britain, it really is true that there was a dark ages that lasted for several centuries after Rome fell.
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There are inscription in Britain from the time Romans left. Not huge amounts, but not small either.

One example -

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cantiorix Inscription - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
I read Nick Holmes books on the fall of Rome. The answer he gave(for the "fall") was political instability and Visogoth Invasions. Every civilization that is divided and without political stability falls to invaders.

As @Renzy said the fall of Rome is seen in the drop of mass produced pottery and roofing tiles, which resulted in a significant lower standard of living.
 
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