More precisely, money can be a fictional construct, but it doesn't have to be. You still leave things out, just because of the sour grapes. It's curious to me over and over again that I keep having to point out that on this site one would think everyone would call out the usury system and its theft of labor and abuse of people. But you seem to applaud it.
Remember, another accurate characterization I realized and pointed out in the past is that he believes in the God State complex. The government is a god and never dies, of course, until it does.
Indeed.
And why do they keep changing it? I thought these guys were smart, pro-growth and knew what they were doing?
Take your low-quality trash posting elsewhere
Actually it's you who us spamming with nonsense and grasping at strawmen. No quality input from you, just old strawmen and boogiemen, and trying to derail the discussion, throwing insults too. Its ok other places exist to discuss bitcoin, without Israel shills. I know it hurts you didn't buy btc early. But does it hurt so bad you have to keep saying its a ponzi over and over, coming back just to say it? Pathetic.
It is the basis for control and ruining male/female relations and families, to boot. The denial of this is astounding. Where does the money come from but from the central bank printing from thin air? Or increasing reserves for the member banks to lend money that never existed, if you prefer? Come now, Scorpion, you didn't answer before, but you can't possibly prefer that the money that you work for is devalued at 10% in its purchasing power per year, can you? If you do, why, do you like losing money so central, controlling elites & their friends can just steal your labor and get first crack at all the assets, goods and services before you do?
The current world is doing a just fine job of that. Do you deny that inflation is bad and only going to get worse? I'm curious. If so, why would we be wrong since we propose this solution. If not, what on earth are we arguing about?
The current system is flawed, that's obvious. But most of the flaws are not due to fiat itself, but rather the people running our system. You all ignore the obvious fact that even if Bitcoin were adopted as the preeminent monetary asset of the future, it would simply be the basis for future financial alchemy by the same usual suspects. It would serve, at best, as the base asset of a new fractional reserve system, the way that gold did in the past. Then everything would begin to play out exactly the same as it always has. There is no monetary solution for the evil and greed within the human heart.
Fiat is not typically devalued at this rate. A stable rate of moderate inflation (i.e. Fed target rate of 2%) is perfectly serviceable to both individuals and the broader economy. Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But the system you all are proposing would be far worse.
This is an emotional argument. I don't sit around stewing about how unfair the world is because I wasn't born a Rothschild Jew banker. I am quite comfortable with the truth that we live in an evil, fallen world run by Satanic elites (and Bitcoin, by the way, will do nothing to change that fact). I choose to focus on things I can control instead: acquiring valuable skills and knowledge, investing in mutually beneficial business and personal relationships with quality people, maintaining good physical health as best I can, and always remembering that God is in control of everything that plays out.
I advocate owning real assets: mostly blue chip stocks, income-producing real estate and gold. I don't even begrudge anyone from speculating on Bitcoin if they understand the risks. I just don't think it's a good long-term play, and I certainly don't think it's some sort of economic or financial panacea that will usher in a golden age for mankind like the maxis seem to think.
That is the communist's line.
You do realize that BTC is decentralized. Or do we have to review that again too?
The Cantillon Effect is an "emotional argument"?
You can do all of that and also advocate for sound money, which you can control (that's what BTC is). In fact, news flash, that is what we are doing.
This is irrelevant because the network itself is completely unworkable at scale, and any sort of mass adoption would necessarily entail massive non-network infrastructure built around it (think the Lightning network and the Bitcoin ETFs on steroids x 100). This would open the door to all sorts of financial engineering, not the least of which would be a currency fractionally backed by Bitcoin, which would then become the actual day-to-day currency used in the economy, and which would, in time, also be inflated just like every other fiat currency.
If you want a financial system completely immune from all types of greed, theft, fraud, manipulation and corruption, the only winning move is not to play, because once you introduce human beings into any sort of economic system, you're going to have all of those things present.
If people go peer to peer with BTC, aren't they by definition staying away from all of those things? That other people do X, Y and Z with any technology (and money is one currently, whether USD or BTC) is not relevant to the people that don't. 1 BTC will be 1 BTC, 100M sats, etc. This is a fundamental understanding of what sound, permission-less, trustless value (money) is. It's the point.
You are well-aware that the Bitcoin network is not capable of supporting peer-to-peer transactions at the scale of global adoption.
This is fine if your only goal is getting rich by holding Bitcoin. It does nothing to advance the argument that BTC can actually function as a monetary standard.
The problem is that while sound, permissionless, trustless money seems great in theory, it is completely unworkable in practice. We're not early with the Bitcoin experiment at this point, we're actually very late. It hasn't accomplished anything remotely like what you and other maxis claim it is capable of doing, not will it ever.
It already does. You seem to be stuck on this idea that it should be the only thing used for ALL transactions. That never happens in life, or history.
It doesn't? Since it is the definition of money, I don't see how you claim this.
What you stated above might be how it's supposed to work, but definitely not how it functions currently.
Let's define money. Inherently valuable?
Is it a store of value? Or possibly "legal tender, backed by the full faith of xyz government"?
What is the difference between money and fiat?
The whole idea of fiat currency is flawed because there is nothing to back it up. The original checks (or cheques for some) were a way to have greater utility of money (gold or silver coins usually) that existed in a bank somewhere. It was not a way to just create "value" out of thin air, unlike how today banks lend what they do not have.
Having something rare and perceived as valuable as the basis of money makes way more sense then a government saying "Just trust me bro" when asked why their currency is worth anything.
What if fiat AND crypto (+ bitcoin) were all wiped out overnight? Only those with real skills and tangible assets are going to be able to build something out of the mess. Whereas just a few hundred years ago all of the precious metal coins would still be worth something.
Agree.
Although IMO livestock is better than paper stocks, or even bitcoin for that matter. Being able to tend both plants and animals is a good way to avoid most of the modern pitfalls of fiat, crypto, etc...
Speaking of which, the folks who settled America didn't do it with a perfect monetary system. They just figured it out. Did the math that taming wilderness land was worth it, being able to carve your own little piece of semi-paradise out of the bush was better than being basically a slave in Britain. More of that kind of attitude, and especially faith in God over any form of earthly money is what is needed these days.
No fiat, bitcoin or even gold can save. They are all simply tools and we will all be judged one day for how we used them during our lives.
Social security is a Ponzi scheme. Government bonds are a Ponzi scheme.
Bitcoin is not -- it does not pay fake returns, stolen from the "pool" -- it pays no returns at all.
What do you mean by "inherent value"? That's quite a nebulous term. What is your specific definition?
It is a contradictory term, as I've described many times. I can't understand things for people, though, just tell those who are open to processing them.
Stephen Perrenod, the astrophysicist (alumnus of MIT & Harvard) has taken an interest in BTC and along with astrophysicist Giovanni Santostasi commonly makes videos about how BTC follows a "power law" (the exponent is fixed). I mention them in case others are interested. Perrenod recently posted on X, stating that one should ask the people that claim that BTC doesn't have "intrinsic value" if they believe the internet doesn't have "intrinsic value."
Since the internet quite clearly has value to humans, this exposes as a good exercise the incorrect way in which most people view things, especially their confusion about protocols (that's what the internet is, and BTC is) that enable networks. It's funny to me, because if you look at the USD, for example, it's clearly an ethereal network of "money" since it has theoretically no limit to its creation, which is why it is criticized in general, and here, by most. Strangely, this is what scorpion also argues makes it "good" but most people don't experience it that way at all - for reasons I have explained. In its abstract realm of limitlessness, it has absolutely zero "intrinsic value" yet it is used globally and he (scorpion) supports it. As a result, clearly it derives its value from something else - something also abstract - nothing inherently.
USD must be expanded ad infinitum to even attempt to work over a longer period of time (and I suspect even he would admit that it will die); Simon Dixon says correctly that the "dollar is debt". And it is. This is what a ponzi is.
I don't know how much more clearly and cogently I can explain this, but I am doing it for those that don't want wishes, emotions, or distractions to get in the way of accurately stating the characteristics of what "money," whether gold, BTC or fiat, is.
Because money is a technology that facilitates trade and (usually/potentially) improves human life, and is always desired by civilizations as a result, it becomes a profoundly moral topic - which is why it is mentioned so much in history, religion, and societies throughout the ages. As we have seen, when you have good money, you have integrity and greater trust in the current day, and in the future. When you have bad money, you have debasement, unproductive lending, speculation due to the expectation for loss in value, and the ability for elites to "pay" others to do things, or encourage particular behaviors, because they can create it out of thin air.
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Yes that is true but we have been through this already at least Bitcoin gives you the choice of using the digital bearer instrument directly when you want to. In fiat the only bearer instrument is physical cash which obviously doesn’t work for online transactions.
If I’m buying a house or a car or a million dollar artwork I am going to transfer peer to peer with actual Bitcoin. If I’m going to buy groceries or a cup of coffee something like lightning network or other similar types of solutions will do the job.
Just like buying a central bank grade vault to store your $500 necklace is overkill using actual Bitcoin to pay for a cup of coffee is also overkill.
The other key difference is when you are saving you will save in actual Bitcoin in cold storage rather than saving your Bitcoin in a lightning network wallet or some such thing and the lightning wallet etc will only have a small amount of day to day spending money. That way even if they fractionalise the custodial bitcoin etc you are still not diluted because you own real bitcoin. Same as when they clipped gold coins (or diluted it with copper, wtc( in ancient times. If you owned a unclipped and unadulterated coin it still maintained its full value while the adulterer coins were worth less.
All that sounds beautiful in theory but in practice it can fail spectacularly.
April 2021 bitcoin was $60k. Only after September 2024 that it passed $60k.
What if you take a loan against your bitcoin during a similar time? Even if you think bitcoin just go up, you risk getting wiped.
reminds me of a coworker who lost his savings with crypto in 2022. He was crying in a corner not knowing how to tell his wife. I told him:
- you’re lucky you’re only 28. Imagine doing such dump crap in your 60’s. You have a decade of setback but you learned a valuable lesson. Now you understand risk.
I see people all the time doing something similar with all types of investments, including real estate. Many times it falls to deaf ears.
I have diversified portfolio but 90% in a money market. It barely covers inflation (pays 4%) but I know that if a bubble pops, I’ll go shopping instead of hitting the food bank. I invested in my career so I have a stable job in a good industry. I gamble heavily with the 10%. I know I won’t go bankrupt if the economy tanks or If my bets go wrong. If I’m lucky, I might enjoy some upside.
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If you're in your '60s then yeah I wouldn't play around too much with equities or anything risky really. Imagine compromising your retirement because you were seeking a few more percent returns.
Pretty much anyone over 40-50 needs to start transitioning to investing more defensively. The longest downturn in history happened in 1929. It would have taken 25 years just to break even on your investment in the total stock market.
A lot of structural issues have been corrected since the Great depression, so I doubt we'd get quite that bad short of a total societal collapse. But even the .com bubble took 13 years to recover from, because it was followed by the crash of 08.
To be on the safe side I would always just assume it could take 15+ years to get your money back in the event of a major crash.
Know how to manage risk. Borrow against only 5% of stack...can survive huge drawdown if needed because of reserve collateral.
Debt is just a tool, like fire: it can heat your home, or burn it down.
Manage risk VS ignore it.
Sleeping soundly at night, is more important than big gains. If you feel comfortably above the fray, and able to work or walk at any time, its a wonderful way to be. Don't change a thing.