A Question About Sexual Purity and Sin

[Bizet]

I understand that both masturbation and premarital sex are considered sinful in Christian teachings, but I would appreciate your opinions on whether one is seen as a graver sin than the other, and why.

If a Christian man were to slip in a moment of temptation, which action would be viewed as more sinful in the eyes of God, masturbation or fornication?

Does scripture or church tradition offer in this area?

 

[GoodShepherd]

I understand that both masturbation and premarital sex are considered sinful in Christian teachings, but I would appreciate your opinions on whether one is seen as a graver sin than the other, and why.

If a Christian man were to slip in a moment of temptation, which action would be viewed as more sinful in the eyes of God, masturbation or fornication?

Does scripture or church tradition offer in this area?

In my humble opinion I think fornication is the greater one, fornication involves another person so its not only lust of the mind and heart alone but involves sin physically with the other person, its like you both came together and agreed to sin plus you becoming one with that other person as the scriptures say. Both are sins though and needs confession and repentance.

Would you prefer to get married to a woman who might be a virgin but has masterbated or a woman who has committed fornication with someone else?

And greater sin than both I think would be adultery.

Im not a priest this is just my opinion I might be wrong.

 

[analyst_green]

In my humble opinion I think fornication is the greater one, fornication involves another person so its not only lust of the mind and heart alone but involves sin physically with the other person, its like you both came together and agreed to sin plus you becoming one with that other person as the scriptures say. Both are sins though and needs confession and repentance.

Would you prefer to get married to a woman who might be a virgin but has masterbated or a woman who has committed fornication with someone else?

And greater sin than both I think would be adultery.

Im not a priest this is just my opinion I might be wrong.

I think you are generally correct here, fornication binds you body and soul to another person in a sinful union. But I would add that it is really difficult to quantify the level of sinfulness and in Orthodox tradition we don't really try to do that because the context is so important.

It could very well be that a habitual masturbator who has very angry thoughts or uses extreme pornography is a greater sinner compared to a man who fornicates regularly with his girlfriend but at least has much love for her. The former may have darkened his soul and developed a much more carnal eye compared to the latter, objectifying everyone around him.

On the other hand, perhaps the porn addict is trying his hardest to stop but cannot, while the fornicator would not have a very hard time abstaining but still decides to sin. The passions are not equally strong in everyone. In this case I would wager that God looks upon the former more favorably because of his great effort and endurance of tribulations.

Ultimately we cannot know for sure and this is why Jesus says not to judge. God looks at the heart of the person to see what is truly there, and we cannot see that. We can only know what is in our own hearts, and not even perfectly at that since it requires discernment.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

I understand that both masturbation and premarital sex are considered sinful in Christian teachings, but I would appreciate your opinions on whether one is seen as a graver sin than the other, and why.

If a Christian man were to slip in a moment of temptation, which action would be viewed as more sinful in the eyes of God, masturbation or fornication?

Does scripture or church tradition offer in this area?

Premarital sex almost always involves birth control of some sort, which reduces the reproductive act to really just mutual masturbation. Strictly speaking, if sodomy is defined as any unnatural sexual act that cannot result in conception, both of these things are sodomy.

Like analyst_green said, it's best not to have a mindset of comparing sins and going "yeah this one's way heavier". But in my view, fornication is significantly worse at least in its tangible and quantifiable effects and dangers. The most important of all being that there is always a possibility that birth control fails and the woman simply kills your baby without telling you. If such a thing were to happen, would that not be blood on your hands, since you knowingly had sex with a woman without first going through the process of vetting her moral character and marrying her? The existence alone of that possibility cannot be ignored.

It cannot be overstated how quick, easy and accesible abortion is today. People even casually upload tutorials on TikTok. Feminists regularly gleefully compare it to buying a burger at a drivethrough, it's that easy and casual. A woman can easily just buy some pills and chemically kill the baby at home without anyone knowing.

It's also hard to overstate how intense of a connection sex creates between a man and a woman. It's on the level of the soul, which is why breakups often break a man.

Masturbation, on the other hand, is completely sterile and soulless. The object of masturbation is not perceived as a person. Which is, of course, terrible in its own way.

 

[EuropeanCanon]

The general answer would be fornication is worse because there are two parties involved and you are using somebody elses body for your gratification. I once read that sexual desire cannot be satisfied by indulging it. It must be subjected to discipline of the body. Trying to satisfy desire by indulging it is like trying to quench a thirst by drinking salt water - it makes it worse.

 

[Josephus]

I’d rank fornication as worse, but they’re both sins and undesirable behaviors.

From a practical point of view, once you begin the it’s not as bad as x game in your mind it just makes you rationalize doing the ‘less bad’ sin. At least for me.

The concept applies to judging others as well. People begin to think they’re a good person and saved because they haven’t committed graver sins. You hear it all the time with phrases like:

I’m not a saint.

Yeah I sin but I never killed anyone, etc.

 

[Bizet]

From a practical point of view, once you begin the it’s not as bad as x game in your mind it just makes you rationalize doing the ‘less bad’ sin. At least for me.

To be honest, this is exactly what was on my mind when I made this thread last night. I was going through a Dark Night of the Soul, and the temptation to sin was really weighing on me.

Thankfully, I’ve woken up today with a clearer head.

 

[Unending Powerhouse Match]

To be honest, this is exactly what was on my mind when I made this thread last night. I was going through a Dark Night of the Soul, and the temptation to sin was really weighing on me.

Thankfully, I’ve woken up today with a clearer head.

Happens to me often. You're weak when you're tired. I've found that nearly every time I fall into this dreadful sin, it's when I stay up extremely late. I need to stop staying up reading manga or doomscrolling or whatever else, but my job leaves me with nearly zero free time and I often feel a need to "extend my day" by cutting into my sleeping time, or else I would have done absolutely nothing the whole day except work and eat, and that always leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. Feels like I accomplished nothing, simply sold my entire day.

 

[GoodShepherd]

I think you are generally correct here, fornication binds you body and soul to another person in a sinful union. But I would add that it is really difficult to quantify the level of sinfulness and in Orthodox tradition we don't really try to do that because the context is so important.

It could very well be that a habitual masturbator who has very angry thoughts or uses extreme pornography is a greater sinner compared to a man who fornicates regularly with his girlfriend but at least has much love for her. The former may have darkened his soul and developed a much more carnal eye compared to the latter, objectifying everyone around him.

On the other hand, perhaps the porn addict is trying his hardest to stop but cannot, while the fornicator would not have a very hard time abstaining but still decides to sin. The passions are not equally strong in everyone. In this case I would wager that God looks upon the former more favorably because of his great effort and endurance of tribulations.

Ultimately we cannot know for sure and this is why Jesus says not to judge. God looks at the heart of the person to see what is truly there, and we cannot see that. We can only know what is in our own hearts, and not even perfectly at that since it requires discernment.

True, each cases is individual and depends on the situation, either way we need to repent and confess our sins and allow God to correct our ways

 

[GoodShepherd]

Happens to me often. You're weak when you're tired. I've found that nearly every time I fall into this dreadful sin, it's when I stay up extremely late. I need to stop staying up reading manga or doomscrolling or whatever else, but my job leaves me with nearly zero free time and I often feel a need to "extend my day" by cutting into my sleeping time, or else I would have done absolutely nothing the whole day except work and eat, and that always leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. Feels like I accomplished nothing, simply sold my entire day.

I find that Im most at risk to this when I skip a week or two of church combined with going to bed very late and having little sleep combined with my wife fighting with me and not having sexual relations with me.

Sometimes it happens once or twice a year that I fall and watch pornography, it happened to me recently, I couldnt make church for 2 weeks it was out of my control, I was going to bed late plus my wife was refusing to have sex with me (thats another topic) so I fell into temptation and watched pornography, I didnt masterbate though I eventually had sexual relations with me wife but I did go and see my priest and told him about my lust and did a confession, basically had to own up that I was looking at naked girls on the internet and how sorry I was.

The confession helps its really good I find it helps a lot.

 

[M.Balakirev]

God please forgive me, but when you're as black-pilled as I am, when it comes to the conditional nature of the relationship between men and women and the absolutely shocking state the West is in, it's harder to take sins such as masturbation as seriously as the more heinous crimes. I could take it more seriously if the cultural and social situation was worthy of respect. I think Christians need to truly face up to the true state of human nature - it would be almost impossible for a guy like me to exchange vows with a woman, in the presence of God, to actually take it all seriously knowing how conditional both parties are. I think most marriages are two-faced and the only sincere result of marriage is children.

So what's good, fit, red-blooded guys like me, and probably many here meant to do for the duration whilst the dating situation presented to us is untenable, even in Christian circles? Let's be real here.

And to add to it, the single 'Christian' women that I've encountered in my life are even more discriminating than the other attractive women in the West.....and this is coming from a guy who was a chad lite in his prime.

 

[GodfatherPartTwo]

when it comes to the conditional nature of the relationship between men and women and the absolutely shocking state the West is in

Human love is always conditional and transactional. It's the ugly reality. The only kind of love that is unconditional is Divine love.

And to add to it, the single 'Christian' women that I've encountered in my life are even more discriminating than the other attractive women in the West.....and this is coming from a guy who was a chad lite in his prime.

The Madonna-like Christian woman that you should marry gets talked about a lot in churchianity but I've never met one either. Obviously, it's ideal if your life long covenant partner is a believer. But we no longer live in a believing age and so we cannot take for granted or believe the illusion that there are millions of chaste Christian women just waiting for a trad chad.

Do not let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

 

[Josephus]

God please forgive me, but when you're as black-pilled as I am, when it comes to the conditional nature of the relationship between men and women and the absolutely shocking state the West is in, it's harder to take sins such as masturbation as seriously as the more heinous crimes. I could take it more seriously if the cultural and social situation was worthy of respect. I think Christians need to truly face up to the true state of human nature - it would be almost impossible for a guy like me to exchange vows with a woman, in the presence of God, to actually take it all seriously knowing how conditional both parties are. I think most marriages are two-faced and the only sincere result of marriage is children.

So what's good, fit, red-blooded guys like me, and probably many here meant to do for the duration whilst the dating situation presented to us is untenable, even in Christian circles? Let's be real here.

I don’t have an answer. If you observe secular men many watch porn, cheat, drink to excess, have affairs, and engage in prostitution or sugar date thots to name a few things. As Christians these things are forbidden.

Pardon my directness but if masturbating once a week prevents you from engaging in those behaviors, so be it.

Ideally, you should be chaste and celibate, but we all know it’s a continuous struggle.

And to add to it, the single 'Christian' women that I've encountered in my life are even more discriminating than the other attractive women in the West.....and this is coming from a guy who was a chad lite in his prime.

Many of the ‘Christian’ women I’ve met have no reason to be discriminating because sometimes their behavior was worse than secular ones, but they hide behind the veil of purity. Yet, they live in a society where there is massive demand, so they can do what they please.

 

[M.Balakirev]

I don’t have an answer. If you observe secular men many watch porn, cheat, drink to excess, have affairs, and engage in prostitution or sugar date thots to name a few things. As Christians these things are forbidden.

Pardon my directness but if masturbating once a week prevents you from engaging in those behaviors, so be it.

Ideally, you should be chaste and celibate, but we all know it’s a continuous struggle.

I agree with this, because even for non-believers, it is damaging to the flesh itself. Over the holiday period I'll be out and about with friends etc and it will be so easy to 'get off' with older divorcees etc, which I will avoid.

Many of the ‘Christian’ women I’ve met have no reason to be discriminating because sometimes their behavior was worse than secular ones, but they hide behind the veil of purity. Yet, they live in a society where there is massive demand, so they can do what they please.

I've just been disappointed with many of the single females, 'God's chosen' or whatever at their attitude, including some marrieds too. You simply can't trust, or take an attractive woman seriously. End of. And I'll say exactly the same thing to The Good Lord.

 

[analyst_green]

God please forgive me, but when you're as black-pilled as I am, when it comes to the conditional nature of the relationship between men and women and the absolutely shocking state the West is in, it's harder to take sins such as masturbation as seriously as the more heinous crimes. I could take it more seriously if the cultural and social situation was worthy of respect. I think Christians need to truly face up to the true state of human nature - it would be almost impossible for a guy like me to exchange vows with a woman, in the presence of God, to actually take it all seriously knowing how conditional both parties are. I think most marriages are two-faced and the only sincere result of marriage is children.

I've just been disappointed with many of the single females, 'God's chosen' or whatever at their attitude, including some marrieds too. You simply can't trust, or take an attractive woman seriously. End of. And I'll say exactly the same thing to The Good Lord.

Brother, you're only torturing yourself with this black pilling. If you start courting women with the belief that everything is transactional, then guess what kind of women you're going to attract? The ones that also believe that it's purely transactional.

Of course there are elements of all relationships that are superficial. No one is perfect but Christ. But we can still have a greater or lesser degree of true love for each other. This is true between husband and wife, mother and son, best friends, etc. True love is to care for another person's well-being and above all her soul.

Remember, as Moses wrote, in marriage two become "one flesh". But you have to believe this is possible in order to find someone. And you have to accept the woman's flaws and understand your own flaws. You say you can't trust attractive women, and often that's right, but why would they trust you when you have such a low opinion of marriage?

Masturbation only makes it more difficult to relate to women. And I say this as someone who has never gone more than a month without it. But I know it's possible to stop completely and I can only blame my own weak faith. I do notice when I'm clean a couple weeks or a month, I get far more attention from women and my interactions just feel so genuine. If I've been masturbating a lot then women can sense that and feel repulsed by me. My conversations feel forced and awkward. Masturbation is a mask we wear to cover up our insecurities. We're not going to find a great wife by wearing a mask, we need to allow ourselves to be vulnerable.

 

[GoodShepherd]

God please forgive me, but when you're as black-pilled as I am, when it comes to the conditional nature of the relationship between men and women and the absolutely shocking state the West is in, it's harder to take sins such as masturbation as seriously as the more heinous crimes. I could take it more seriously if the cultural and social situation was worthy of respect. I think Christians need to truly face up to the true state of human nature - it would be almost impossible for a guy like me to exchange vows with a woman, in the presence of God, to actually take it all seriously knowing how conditional both parties are. I think most marriages are two-faced and the only sincere result of marriage is children.

So what's good, fit, red-blooded guys like me, and probably many here meant to do for the duration whilst the dating situation presented to us is untenable, even in Christian circles? Let's be real here.

And to add to it, the single 'Christian' women that I've encountered in my life are even more discriminating than the other attractive women in the West.....and this is coming from a guy who was a chad lite in his prime.

Masturbation is obviously a sin and should be avoided and confess it to your priest when it happens its gna help you to do that, best to just get married I really dont think its that hard to get married, as long as the girl is a Christian and someone you can trust and will be a good mother and wife I dont think you should be too picky.

Personally when Im not getting sex from my wife I always feel like doing something dangerous or start a civil war, great physical activity and prayer helps but its a constant struggle, dealing with the sexual drive.

 

[Josephus]

I agree with this, because even for non-believers, it is damaging to the flesh itself. Over the holiday period I'll be out and about with friends etc and it will be so easy to 'get off' with older divorcees etc, which I will avoid.

I've just been disappointed with many of the single females, 'God's chosen' or whatever at their attitude, including some marrieds too. You simply can't trust, or take an attractive woman seriously. End of. And I'll say exactly the same thing to The Good Lord.

A buddy I grew up with had a job as a doorman/bouncer at a strip club (over a decade ago, guy is married now)

He told me that it was usually difficult to get dancers for the Sunday day shift because many of them were Catholic and had to go to church.

My guess is things have gotten worse since then.

 

[M.Balakirev]

Remember, as Moses wrote, in marriage two become "one flesh". But you have to believe this is possible in order to find someone.

I know we want to believe this, but in reality, this isn't how human nature is and how things pan-out with women's dual mating strategy, unless "you are the man" and you choose each other. I never, ever thought the man choosing the woman whilst the woman reluctantly accepts the man was ever a good idea since age 16, and sometimes I have little sympathy when I often see a relatively passive woman eventually taking the lead in the relationship....because deep in her heart he was never the one. Maybe this is sinful to want strong passion (lust) in the relationship, but....women make the rules in the dating game as to who they want, so that they willfully submit to the man of their choice, rather than under duress. It's unnatural when a woman submits to a guy who's punching above his weight, and she knows it.

Masturbation is obviously a sin and should be avoided and confess it to your priest when it happens its gna help you to do that, best to just get married I really dont think its that hard to get married, as long as the girl is a Christian and someone you can trust and will be a good mother and wife I dont think you should be too picky.

I'm well into middle aged but still in good shape, so since it's not likely I'm gonna have kids now because of my age, the culture, the expense, time/energy, and scarcity in supply, I would imagine there's a bit of flexibility there. I assume you're quite young and when you've got to the age where the reality of human relationships truly sets in, you might have a different opinion, particularly when an individual's own personal circumstances influences what they can do. I know you're trying to give advice but a fellow Christian said something similar where it was almost virtue-signalling, and only after he'd conveniently picked a gorgeous little wife for himself....I doubt he'd have put the effort in to dating the type of a woman he had in mind for me.

I'm not saying you're virtue signalling, but we're men here, and both men and women are drawn to a minimum standard of physical appearance since forever. I can afford to be quite picky, and still will be, because they are, according to their personal circumstances at that given moment (how convenient). When an attractive woman chooses a man (let the woman always choose you) the choice is more sincere and robust and this is fact.

A buddy I grew up with had a job as a doorman/bouncer at a strip club (over a decade ago, guy is married now)

He told me that it was usually difficult to get dancers for the Sunday day shift because many of them were Catholic and had to go to church.

My guess is things have gotten worse since then.

It just bothered me that some of them were maybe not as pure as I thought, but it was nothing serious. I think many just keep their heads down when there's male company around. I've just been disappointed at single, attractive, church goer/Christian women's responses towards me consistently over the years, in some instances, just plain rude, when in fact it's a different story whenever I'm out the odd Saturday night. Just to let you know I'm not a sperge either.

 

[Josephus]

I know we want to believe this, but in reality, this isn't how human nature is and how things pan-out with women's dual mating strategy, unless "you are the man" and you choose each other. I never, ever thought the man choosing the woman whilst the woman reluctantly accepts the man was ever a good idea since age 16, and sometimes I have little sympathy when I often see a relatively passive woman eventually taking the lead in the relationship....because deep in her heart he was never the one. Maybe this is sinful to want strong passion (lust) in the relationship, but....women make the rules in the dating game as to who they want, so that they willfully submit to the man of their choice, rather than under duress. It's unnatural when a woman submits to a guy who's punching above his weight, and she knows it.



I'm well into middle aged but still in good shape, so since it's not likely I'm gonna have kids now because of my age, the culture, the expense, time/energy, and scarcity in supply, I would imagine there's a bit of flexibility there. I assume you're quite young and when you've got to the age where the reality of human relationships truly sets in, you might have a different opinion, particularly when an individual's own personal circumstances influences what they can do. I know you're trying to give advice but a fellow Christian said something similar where it was almost virtue-signalling, and only after he'd conveniently picked a gorgeous little wife for himself....I doubt he'd have put the effort in to dating the type of a woman he had in mind for me.

I'm not saying you're virtue signalling, but we're men here, and both men and women are drawn to a minimum standard of physical appearance since forever. I can afford to be quite picky, and still will be, because they are, according to their personal circumstances at that given moment (how convenient). When an attractive woman chooses a man (let the woman always choose you) the choice is more sincere and robust and this is fact.



It just bothered me that some of them were maybe not as pure as I thought, but it was nothing serious. I think many just keep their heads down when there's male company around. I've just been disappointed at single, attractive, church goer/Christian women's responses towards me consistently over the years, in some instances, just plain rude, when in fact it's a different story whenever I'm out the odd Saturday night. Just to let you know I'm not a sperge either.

You seem to have a realistic view of the situation that matches mine. The big issue in my opinion is our age. I’m in my 30s and I’m not around single women who are good choices anymore. Usually the women that flirt me randomly fall into a few categories:

1) Married or attached women looking for side action. Usually coworkers.

2) 25-30 something who are very attractive (out of my league) and seem to be looking for sugar daddys. I’m guessing hookers by the photos on their ig accounts and how they dress.

3) Single moms.

4) Career women, usually those with a PhD, JD, or even doctors, who want a guy they can control.

No, no, no, and no.

I’ve also gotten some bad reactions from Christian women at church, with no explanation as to why.

About the last point, this is a weird story, but I was consistently going to an Orthodox Church and there was a woman in the choir.

Note that I never said a word to her or even looked at her, I just knew who she was. I was a catechumen, so I couldn’t take communion, but they’d distribute the bread to the catechumens after communion. This woman would bring some to every catechumen and then skip over me every single time. I thought it was weird, but ignored it.

Then one day the priest had invited me to the young adult group and she was standing next to me. I said hello, she looked at me, said nothing and just walked across the room. This woman was also frumpy and unattractive so I had zero interest in her, which made the situation even more bizarre.

I later told my priest and he claimed it was a misunderstanding, but that and other things just soured me on that church and I stopped going.

 

[GoodShepherd]

I know we want to believe this, but in reality, this isn't how human nature is and how things pan-out with women's dual mating strategy, unless "you are the man" and you choose each other. I never, ever thought the man choosing the woman whilst the woman reluctantly accepts the man was ever a good idea since age 16, and sometimes I have little sympathy when I often see a relatively passive woman eventually taking the lead in the relationship....because deep in her heart he was never the one. Maybe this is sinful to want strong passion (lust) in the relationship, but....women make the rules in the dating game as to who they want, so that they willfully submit to the man of their choice, rather than under duress. It's unnatural when a woman submits to a guy who's punching above his weight, and she knows it.



I'm well into middle aged but still in good shape, so since it's not likely I'm gonna have kids now because of my age, the culture, the expense, time/energy, and scarcity in supply, I would imagine there's a bit of flexibility there. I assume you're quite young and when you've got to the age where the reality of human relationships truly sets in, you might have a different opinion, particularly when an individual's own personal circumstances influences what they can do. I know you're trying to give advice but a fellow Christian said something similar where it was almost virtue-signalling, and only after he'd conveniently picked a gorgeous little wife for himself....I doubt he'd have put the effort in to dating the type of a woman he had in mind for me.

I'm not saying you're virtue signalling, but we're men here, and both men and women are drawn to a minimum standard of physical appearance since forever. I can afford to be quite picky, and still will be, because they are, according to their personal circumstances at that given moment (how convenient). When an attractive woman chooses a man (let the woman always choose you) the choice is more sincere and robust and this is fact.



It just bothered me that some of them were maybe not as pure as I thought, but it was nothing serious. I think many just keep their heads down when there's male company around. I've just been disappointed at single, attractive, church goer/Christian women's responses towards me consistently over the years, in some instances, just plain rude, when in fact it's a different story whenever I'm out the odd Saturday night. Just to let you know I'm not a sperge either.

Your original post almost sounds like you have no hope or faith in marriage or getting married, I am quite young im almost 40, Im not single though Im married with kids so Im not in your situation.

Im putting myself in your shoes if it was me I would either get married and probably quite fast I dont waste time OR I would go become a monk and go live in a monestary, I wouldnt want to be living in sin and I would probably struggle living in society single I think theres too many temptations and I would try avoid them personally.

I dont know what your age is but a man can get married and have children at any age, yes it can be hard, expensive etc etc but its worth the fight and struggle in my opinion, for me personally I dont see the point of earning money and having a house if its just for myself I do that for my wife and kids, it just makes sense to me to rather live a life of service if I were to be single, join the military or something or live for God, this is advice to myself Im putting myself in your shoes and what I think I would do.